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Junior doctors' strike


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So am I right in saying that this is now basically a row about pay? I assume that Hunt's line about a seven day NHS is bullshit because, y'know, he's a Tory minister. And I understand that the concerns about over working doctors and patient safety have been allayed so basically this walkout is about how much junior doctors get paid for unsociable hours?

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No propaganda to it. Hunt's been championing private healthcare for years

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-privatise-nhs-tories-privatising-private-insurance-market-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html

 

It's a win win for him. Save money by forcing doctors to effectively work more for less. Or make money by privatising the parts that fail when the doctors fuck off abroad

 

If you got paid for working 9pm on a Saturday when your mates were on the lash, and then they decided that would just be your normal wage, I think you would be fucked off too

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That's exactly the sort of misinformation I'm talking about. Under the government offer doctors won't be getting standard pay up until 9pm on a Saturday, it's simply untrue, there's a 33% premium paid after 5pm on a Saturday and 50% after 9pm. If you aren't aware of that then there's a good chance that many of those on strike also don't.

Edited by ewerk
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It's a classic tory provocation aimed at destroying the "industry" from a public pov. They did it in the past with miners, steel workers and other public sectors.

 

Ben Goldacre pretty much disproved the stats they used regarding weekend death rates which were simply a vehicle.

Edited by NJS
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That's exactly the sort of misinformation I'm talking about. Under the government offer doctors won't be getting standard pay up until 9pm on a Saturday, it's simply untrue, there's a 33% premium paid after 5pm on a Saturday and 50% after 9pm. If you aren't aware of that then there's a good chance that many of those on strike also don't.

Was this just an excuse to start a row :lol:

 

There's a 33% premium on the 'new basic rate' between 5-9pm on Saturday, which works out as less then the current Saturday rate

 

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Edited by StraightEdgeWizard
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So it's not their normal wage then? I honestly don't have a position on the whole thing. Over the last couple of decades the idea of working life being 9-5 has been eradicated in many industries and the health service should be no different (not that I'm saying it is completely 9-5 now). I am concerned about over-working doctors and patient safety but that doesn't seem to be what is at play here. It seems to now be that the BMA are saying they are happy to work nights/weekends but they want a much higher premium for it than is on offer.

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I know a few GP's. One of them was working on a weekend after basically being told they had to. In 3 Saturdays of working he saw 2 patients.

 

Something like that takes time though for people to be aware of and get used to going to the GP on a Saturday. I know that in my area the out of hours GP service is practically a secret and something you have to jump through hoops for, largely because they don't want the service being used.

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J69 is right about this one, and am surprised ewerk has taken the Tory bait tbh. Greedy doctors ffs (because that is strongly what the op implies). I honestly think the nhs is not far from collapse. Under a conservative government, who'd have thunk it?

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So it's not their normal wage then? I honestly don't have a position on the whole thing. Over the last couple of decades the idea of working life being 9-5 has been eradicated in many industries and the health service should be no different (not that I'm saying it is completely 9-5 now). I am concerned about over-working doctors and patient safety but that doesn't seem to be what is at play here. It seems to now be that the BMA are saying they are happy to work nights/weekends but they want a much higher premium for it than is on offer.

This is a whole other argument, but outside the service industry and perhaps some manufacturing, who has to work weekends? Why should we all sink to the lowest common denominator? Why do you need an elective clinic or surgery at the weekend? How are you going to pay for this given the limited funds and huge personnel crisis we have in the NHS?

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J69 is right about this one, and am surprised ewerk has taken the Tory bait tbh. Greedy doctors ffs (because that is strongly what the op implies). I honestly think the nhs is not far from collapse. Under a conservative government, who'd have thunk it?

 

Exactly where in the OP did I imply that it was about greedy doctors? I said that it was about pay, I made no judgement on whether the offer was fair or not.

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Btw the argument should be that the position we've reached, where people are expected to just hand their lives over to their employers, is completely fucked up. Not that we should just expect everyone else to get on the bandwagon.

 

Although arguably health service workers give over a lot more of their lives than the rest of us already anyway. And for a lot less money in most roles.

 

Hunt is desperately hoping for the tide of public opinion to turn against the doctors with this strike. He hopefully might be too big of a cunt for that to happen though.

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This is a whole other argument, but outside the service industry and perhaps some manufacturing, who has to work weekends? Why should we all sink to the lowest common denominator? Why do you need an elective clinic or surgery at the weekend? How are you going to pay for this given the limited funds and huge personnel crisis we have in the NHS?

 

The entire retail industry too, just off the top of my head. It's not about the lowest common denominator but how society is changing. Doctors can currently earn up to double time for working unsocial hours, I don't know of any business where double time wasn't done away with years ago. I'm sure it still exists but it's nowhere near as common as it used to be.

 

The economic argument for a seven day NHS is that all the facilities are there for elective and surgery and most of it is lying unused at the weekend and is clearly an inefficient use of resources. I don't for a moment believe that you can expect a fully seven day NHS without increasing staffing levels, that's completely unrealistic. I'm also not saying that we need a seven day NHS. Though a seven day A&E would be nice but that's a different issue.

Edited by ewerk
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Someone tweeted a a receipt from a bloke who had been in hospital in the US for a week, came to something like $80k. I have heard all sorts of stuff about that. One bloke had been working in a government job for 25 years. Gets made redundant. Within in a year finds out he has cancer. Because he didnt have healthcare because he couldnt afford it he was fucked. So robbed a bank just so he could get put in jail to get the healthcare.

Do we really want to go down this route?

The biggest expenditure for the NHS is drugs. WTF! Why isnt the government doing something about this? Probably because the cunts mates are directors in these drugs businesses.

Anyways, rant over. The Junior Docs are the future of the NHS (if it survives these bastards) and we need to back them.

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Someone senior at work who I don't even work for rang me during the day on Sunday. I'd love to say I couldn't believe it, but I totally could. Basically asking where I was and what I was doing cos he needed me to do some work for him.

 

Needless to say I didn't do it but where did employers ever get the balls to think that that sort of thing is perfectly acceptable.

 

I'd told him I wasn't going to be home til the evening so it would have to wait, and I got a text two hours later saying "what time are you going to be home this evening because I need this stuff today." On a fucking Sunday. Suck my balls.

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The entire retail industry too, just off the top of my head. It's not about the lowest common denominator but how society is changing.

 

The economic argument for a seven day NHS is that all the facilities are there for elective and surgery and most of it is lying unused at the weekend and is clearly an inefficient use of resources. I don't for a moment believe that you can expect a fully seven day NHS without increasing staffing levels, that's completely unrealistic. I'm also not saying that we need a seven day NHS. Though a seven day A&E would be nice but that's a different issue.

I'll refer you to gemmill's post as to what is wrong with forcing people to needlessly work a 7 day week.

 

The physical resources might be there to facilitate a fully 7 day NHS but the human and monetary resources are not and never will be. Do you think Hunt is stupid and doesn't know this? If you agree this is unlikely would you like to speculate what Hunt's ulterior motive might be?

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As I understand it a lot of junior doctors work 70 hours a week now but there is inbuilt flexibility that allows those with families to take the odd weekend off and also rules that try and prevent them working a ridiculous number of hours in a row.

 

The new contract not only removes the long hours rule but it also means weekends are pretty much mandatory. As there is no extra money this means quality of life changes for no gains. If I was in their position I'd be leaving the country pronto.

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That's exactly the sort of misinformation I'm talking about. Under the government offer doctors won't be getting standard pay up until 9pm on a Saturday, it's simply untrue, there's a 33% premium paid after 5pm on a Saturday and 50% after 9pm. If you aren't aware of that then there's a good chance that many of those on strike also don't.

It's not that far-fetched. It makes perfect sense.

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Someone tweeted a a receipt from a bloke who had been in hospital in the US for a week, came to something like $80k. I have heard all sorts of stuff about that. One bloke had been working in a government job for 25 years. Gets made redundant. Within in a year finds out he has cancer. Because he didnt have healthcare because he couldnt afford it he was fucked. So robbed a bank just so he could get put in jail to get the healthcare.

Do we really want to go down this route?

 

The biggest expenditure for the NHS is drugs. WTF! Why isnt the government doing something about this? Probably because the cunts mates are directors in these drugs businesses.

Anyways, rant over. The Junior Docs are the future of the NHS (if it survives these bastards) and we need to back them.

 

well said

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Someone tweeted a a receipt from a bloke who had been in hospital in the US for a week, came to something like $80k. I have heard all sorts of stuff about that. One bloke had been working in a government job for 25 years. Gets made redundant. Within in a year finds out he has cancer. Because he didnt have healthcare because he couldnt afford it he was fucked. So robbed a bank just so he could get put in jail to get the healthcare.

Do we really want to go down this route?

 

I heard of this one guy in America. He had a decent job (was a teacher). Diagnosed with cancer and couldn't afford the treatment and was forced to turn to cooking meth to pay for his medical bills and look after his family.

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As I understand it a lot of junior doctors work 70 hours a week now but there is inbuilt flexibility that allows those with families to take the odd weekend off and also rules that try and prevent them working a ridiculous number of hours in a row.

 

The new contract not only removes the long hours rule but it also means weekends are pretty much mandatory. As there is no extra money this means quality of life changes for no gains. If I was in their position I'd be leaving the country pronto.

 

Again, this isn't true. Doctors will not be able to work more than 72 hours in a week and no more than four night shifts in a row. I'm not saying that 72 hour weeks are acceptable but again it shows the misinformation out there.

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Someone tweeted a a receipt from a bloke who had been in hospital in the US for a week, came to something like $80k. I have heard all sorts of stuff about that. One bloke had been working in a government job for 25 years. Gets made redundant. Within in a year finds out he has cancer. Because he didnt have healthcare because he couldnt afford it he was fucked. So robbed a bank just so he could get put in jail to get the healthcare.

Do we really want to go down this route?

 

The biggest expenditure for the NHS is drugs. WTF! Why isnt the government doing something about this? Probably because the cunts mates are directors in these drugs businesses.

Anyways, rant over. The Junior Docs are the future of the NHS (if it survives these bastards) and we need to back them.

You're wrong about the drugs budget, it only accounts for about 10% of nhs spending. The UK gets the best deal possible through the work of public bodies like NICE (who I work for). We pay less than virtually any other western country. By far the largest expenditure is staff salaries. Next is estates iirc.

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