Vladimir Putin and Russia

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, scoobos said:

One good thing that could come out of this and the pandemic is learning how to team up globally to shared goals. I've still hope.

 

This is exactly what I want for the world but I don't see how we can get there with Putin poisoning the wells in Western democracies and invading his neighbours. I know that a lot of people who rightly accuse the US military industry of all manner of evils across the world struggle to see a man whose defiance of NATO made him something of a posterchild to the left and whose conservative, strongman act made him a posterchild to the right, but he is every bit as bad as the US side in terms of who he is, but worse, he's not remotely reined in by the checks and balances that exist in Western democracies. Such as they are. He is the equivalent of one of our warhawk imperialist arch capitalists but without any accountability to anyone.

 

I have no hope. Brexit killed the last of my hope, learning Putin basically financed the damn thing twisted the knife in, and I stand here almost alone on the moderate left hand side of the spectrum (that I know, many people now don't believe in because IMO he's done such a fucking good job of muddying the entire fucking discourse in our countries that no one knows which way is up anymore) screaming and shouting to my comrades about the ACTUAL FASCIST who is invading a European democracy and they just don't want to hear it. Or they do hear it, have a moment of cognitive dissonance, and then default back to talking about how the US is the real enemy. 

 

I assure you, there is no hope left.

[scoobos 297]

There's always hope. people would have said the same during WW1 and 2.

Humanity generally is brilliant - most things invented or made are made by people with good intentions.

I have to do it again and bite though, because the numbers don't add up here:

Number of invasions of foreign countries.
Number of civilians killed

Number of proxy armies created to destabilise countries.

Since 1950

Not so much for being" reined in by the checks and balances that exist in Western democracies" I'd be VERY surprised if the US or Israel don't top that chart - or perhaps some African nations that have perpetual forward and back war.
 

[Toonpack 6982]

40 minutes ago, scoobos said:

I said if you believe Yemen is "complicated" because there are more than 2 sides - shows that maybe you've been hoodwinked. For example, there are more than 2 sides in this war in Ukraine right now - the seperatists, the loyalists / ukranians and russia.

 

We are arming them in a "non specific country" way (or we were until Truss starting being a twat" - as the rest of the world saying "no" - we are not doing nothing as you suggest. We are actually doing more than I thought we would.

 

and I would have believed it if the UK was cowering in the corner (as we more or less are) telling everyone that Putin wasn't such a bad guy and that he's just misunderstood (disclaimer, I'm not attributing that view to you, it's just an example of an opposing government line).

Who's saying that? Which opposiing government is saying that. I think what Im saying is dont , for fucks sake start saying we've mobilised nuclear submarines ready to strike. Thats nuclear escalation and WE are doing it - just the UK.

Yemen is Houthi rebels (backed by Iran) against the rest, there’s two sides, the other side is a coalition of 11 nations, led by Saudi.

 

On Putin, appease him and it kicks another confrontation down the road for a few years.

 

He wants to rebuild the USSR, he shot down an airliner, used chemical and nerve agents on folks in the UK, (if those ain’t an act of war, I don’t know what is) then Chechnya, then Georgia,now Ukraine and Ukraine is a bit close for comfort.

 

 

[Rayvin 4964]

 

Fuck it, let's just give him the keys to Europe. Within another 10 years he would have owned our discourse in full anyway.

[scoobos 297]

1 minute ago, Toonpack said:

Yemen is Houthi rebels (backed by Iran) against the rest, there’s two sides, the other side is a coalition of 11 nations, led by Saudi.

 

On Putin, appease him and it kicks another confrontation down the road for a few years.

 

He wants to rebuild the USSR, he shot down an airliner, used chemical and nerve agents on folks in the UK, (if those ain’t an act of war, I don’t know what is) then Chechnya, then Georgia,now Ukraine and Ukraine is a bit close for comfort.

 

 

I get your point - but why do we appease Yemen?

Arguably now Ukraine is the same - Donbas etc seperatists, backed by Russia and the other side is a coalition of many nations, led by the Ukraine? 

And yes, Putin is a fucking nightmare and needs dealing with, and I believe we finally are doing what we should have done with Crimea. Escalating warfare to drive into the russian heartlands (Liz Truss) is what got my debating blood up earlier and what I'm really ranting about.

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Fuck it, let's just give him the keys to Europe. Within another 10 years he would have owned our discourse in full anyway.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/28/moldova-facing-very-dangerous-moment-amid-fears-it-could-be-drawn-into-ukraine-war

 

Putin is way ahead of me anyway.

[scoobos 297]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Fuck it, let's just give him the keys to Europe. Within another 10 years he would have owned our discourse in full anyway.

Now I can cry that you're being harsh.

Im in no ways saying surrender I'm saying let Ukraine defend itself with our assistance , but dont escalate.

if we escalate we get a MAJOR war for years , all caused by him being a cnut.

If we allow Ukraine to defend and kick him out - we WIN without major war in europe , because even Putin cannot withstand such an embarrasing and damaging loss. When Russia retreats, it's unfeasible to think that Russians are not going to turn against the regime - they will see what we are seeing now.

[aimaad22 3540]

Looks like Germany is ready to cave in to the demand to pay for gas in rubles. I don't think Europe is ready to take an economic hit and you lot are talking of fighting a nuclear war for freedom. 

[Rayvin 4964]

5 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Now I can cry that you're being harsh.

Im in no ways saying surrender I'm saying let Ukraine defend itself with our assistance , but dont escalate.

if we escalate we get a MAJOR war for years , all caused by him being a cnut.

If we allow Ukraine to defend and kick him out - we WIN without major war in europe , because even Putin cannot withstand such an embarrasing and damaging loss. When Russia retreats, it's unfeasible to think that Russians are not going to turn against the regime - they will see what we are seeing now.

 

Wasn't really aimed at you, I'm just worn down now.

 

I don't think Ukraine can win. I don't think they'll survive, it'll be cultural genocide. I think he'll go again for other countries. I think we'll get that war further down the line anyway, just having given Russia more time to prepare for it. I don't think the Russian people are going to overthrow him, I think he genuinely does have majority support.

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

Looks like Germany is ready to cave in to the demand to pay for gas in rubles. I don't think Europe is ready to take an economic hit and you lot are talking of fighting a nuclear war for freedom. 

 

Fair point, to which I direct my other comment:

 

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Fuck it, let's just give him the keys to Europe. Within another 10 years he would have owned our discourse in full anyway.

 

[aimaad22 3540]

How does Putin actually think they can pull of a wider conventional conflict given their failures in Ukraine so far? What does he have up his sleeve? If the objective is restoration of some semblance of the USSR than going nuclear isn't really going to achieve that is it?  

 

Remember when Turkey shot down that Russian jet near Syria and there were fears of a major response against NATO? I remember reading an article or two where the military strategists seemed to think Russia would need a few days to blitzkrieg across Europe right up to England's doorstep and all the calculations where how many days Europe could hold off before the US war machine is fully mobilized. Seems a bit silly now all that  

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, aimaad22 said:

How does Putin actually think they can pull of a wider conventional conflict given their failures in Ukraine so far? What does he have up his sleeve? If the objective is restoration of some semblance of the USSR than going nuclear isn't really going to achieve that is it?  

 

Remember when Turkey shot down that Russian jet near Syria and there were fears of a major response against NATO? I remember reading an article or two where the military strategists seemed to think Russia would need a few days to blitzkrieg across Europe right up to England's doorstep and all the calculations where how many days Europe could hold off before the US war machine is fully mobilized. Seems a bit silly now all that  

 

Agreed, but based on the evidence so far, he's going to slowly steamroll across various nations unopposed by any serious military because we're all afraid of nukes/wasted years failing to switch to renewables.

[spongebob toonpants 3629]

10 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

Looks like Germany is ready to cave in to the demand to pay for gas in rubles. I don't think Europe is ready to take an economic hit and you lot are talking of fighting a nuclear war for freedom. 

I've tried to avoid my main bugbear about this war, which is everything the US does, so by proxy the rest of the west, is about oil gas and other commodities.

It's ludicrous to be advocating possible nuclear war when we ate funding arussia by buying its fuel

[spongebob toonpants 3629]

22 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Fuck it, let's just give him the keys to Europe. Within another 10 years he would have owned our discourse in full anyway.

Nobody is saying this, you're better than this

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Nobody is saying this, you're better than this

 

16 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Wasn't really aimed at you, I'm just worn down now.

 

I don't think Ukraine can win. I don't think they'll survive, it'll be cultural genocide. I think he'll go again for other countries. I think we'll get that war further down the line anyway, just having given Russia more time to prepare for it. I don't think the Russian people are going to overthrow him, I think he genuinely does have majority support.

[Rayvin 4964]

3 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I've tried to avoid my main bugbear about this war, which is everything the US does, so by proxy the rest of the west, is about oil gas and other commodities.

It's ludicrous to be advocating possible nuclear war when we ate funding arussia by buying its fuel

 

Who is advocating nuclear war?

[aimaad22 3540]

6 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I've tried to avoid my main bugbear about this war, which is everything the US does, so by proxy the rest of the west, is about oil gas and other commodities.

It's ludicrous to be advocating possible nuclear war when we ate funding arussia by buying its fuel

 

Aye. I haven't been reading too much about what's going on in Germany etc. to be honest but you would think pressurizing them to stop buying the gas should be the next major step, before direct conflict. That's a major recession and huge problems of course but still preferable to nuclear war surely if that's really on the table now?

Edited April 28, 2022 by aimaad22

[Dr Gloom 19974]

3 hours ago, PaddockLad said:

I don’t usually say “I told you so” but I said that on here about 3 hours after the first tank rolled across the border. Putin needs to be physically opposed by NATO. Anything other than defeat emboldens him, his shitty gangster state, those who may sit in his chair next and any other fuckers watching on,  sticking  their fingers in the air to see which way the wind is blowing  eg China. Yes, nuclear war is a possibility. But mutually assured destruction is either a thing or it’s not. It horrifies me that we may have to try it out but this is indeed very likely the start of WW3 and western leaders look like they’ve come up with err “a plan”, the tone from the US has changed this week and client journos  are being instructed to spread the word.  
 

Western civilisation has had a good run but all empires crumble…. 

yup, I think fighting back was an inevitable outcome after putin decided to invade. Shame we didn’t get ahead of the game as it was so obviously coming 

[scoobos 297]

Ok, time at the bar please - More love, less anxiety driven news.

I quit reading the news for a few days (and I felt guilty cos "ignorance") - but I think you can know too much .. First day I read it again, I'm hammering this thread!

Escalation is unlikely, strategically. he's a madman but he's not quite got the cards up his sleeve that we thought he had. It's awful to use these terms, because human beings are dying on both sides - but he's embarrasing himself showing this capability. Rusty tanks and an inability to win a conventional war with his next door neighbour - after taking 6+ months to mobilise a sizable proportion of his total army. Ukraine (*cough* Rest of the World Alliance) will win here (strategically - of course, everyone loses on a human scale). 

Hope he has a massive fucking coronary through the sheer stress of it all.

Edited April 28, 2022 by scoobos

[Tom 13895]

Biden putting $33bn aid/weapons proposal to congress. Certainly calling Putin’s bluff.

[spongebob toonpants 3629]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think a partitioned Ukraine is inevitable, its just how long we take to get there.

You make think that's a defeatist view, but let's not forget Russia annexed the Crimea in 2014 but held the World Cup in 2018 without a whimper of protest.

You seem to think some sort of settlement in Ukraine will lead to Putin invading somewhere else, personally I can't see him taking on a NATO country, because even if he ends up with the Dombas the Crimea and Odessa make no mistake this has been a humiliation for him and Russia.

 

Best outcome imo is negotiate a settlement, stop the war and stop buying his fucking oil.

[spongebob toonpants 3629]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

Biden putting $33bn aid/weapons proposal to congress. Certainly calling Putin’s bluff.

Certainly feeding the military industrial complex. Sorry couldn't help myself

[scoobos 297]

1 minute ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Best outcome imo is negotiate a settlement, stop the war and stop buying anybody's fucking oil.

FTFY

[Rayvin 4964]

1 minute ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I think a partitioned Ukraine is inevitable, its just how long we take to get there.

You make think that's a defeatist view, but let's not forget Russia annexed the Crimea in 2014 but held the World Cup in 2018 without a whimper of protest.

You seem to think some sort of settlement in Ukraine will lead to Putin invading somewhere else, personally I can't see him taking on a NATO country, because even if he ends up with the Dombas the Crimea and Odessa make no mistake this has been a humiliation for him and Russia.

 

Best outcome imo is negotiate a settlement, stop the war and stop buying his fucking oil.

 

He is the winner, in that scenario. Rewarded for his aggression. I guess that's what we accept in this world though.

[spongebob toonpants 3629]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

He is the winner, in that scenario. Rewarded for his aggression. I guess that's what we accept in this world though.

I don't see it the same way. He is by many accounts the richest man in the world, but whereas before he would be welcomed anywhere in the world now he will be a pariah. 

 

If we get out of this without starting WW3 that is much more of a victory