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Middle East Crisis


Rayvin
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Just now, Dr Gloom said:

 

if it does that, it declares war on the arab world, ensuring there will never be peace. i don't think even netanyahu is that dumb

 

That doesn't mean it's not what the Arab world is thinking he might do though. Jordan may well have looked at the way this is going and concluded that he would.

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Egypt also don't want to inherit a couple of million refugees who are effectively being ethnically cleansed with no route back to their homes. You can see why, but there has to be some immediate short-term solution too. 

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The other thing is, if Israel promises they can go back (and they are sincere) it’s the practicalities of proving you’re allowed back on one hand. Then what you are actually going back to if you get home. 

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They'll never allow any return - the right of return of those kicked out of their homes post-1947 is a non-negotiable no which has affected every attempt at peace. 

 

It's also the position as far as I'm aware that the creation of Jordan, Syria and Lebanon in their current form is meant as a Palestinian "homeland" by those who oppose peace in Israel. 

 

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4 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

the survey is almost a decade old and is a poll of 5,000 people. i don't know if a poll today would return similar numbers. i don't suspect it would be a great look were it to be rerun today. angry and scared civilians who just came under attack tend to shift to the right, regrettably. 

 

however, in my experience of israel, this view is not the consensus. it is the view of the ultra-orthodox and the right-wing nationalists. remember that likud haven’t been unable to form a majority for several years now - look at how many elections were rerun because they failed to produce a government - and bibi is only clinging to power because he is propped up by literally the worst people in the country - real nigel farage types.

 

the tragedy is israel had a progressive government which was committed to the peace process in the 90s. real progress was made, arafat recognised the state of israel, the oslo accords presented a path to a two-state solution. then a nationalist fanatic assassinated rabin. since then netanyahu has dominated israeli politics, allowing settlements to expand and has been able to shift the centre ground in israel so far right that the peace process looks like a pipe dream. 


Watched this again at the weekend…what could have been :( 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Now obviously we all have a no Piers Morgan rule, but he gets an absolute schooling here. This bloke runs rings round him

 

https://x.com/brokenbottleboy/status/1714534404742131733?s=20

 

 

 

If I'm ever being questioned in a some tribunal I'm having this cunt as my representative. :good:

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1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

it's not like the former labour leader to expose his bias before the facts are established 

 

 

Not that Johnson was any more fit but it further highlights how unfit to govern he was. He’d have been rightly taken to the cleaners over so many things. You can just imagine him putting his foot in it left, right and centre when matters got serious. I don’t think he does things with bad intentions but even here (despite what he might think he’s doing) he’s basically poking the hornets’ nest from a position where it doesn’t really effect him 

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We saw similar right at the start of this with the beheading babies narrative too tbf. People swallowed that whole and it's still doing the rounds despite Israel having now stated they have no evidence of it. Everyone leans in on their bias - having said that, hospitals getting hit in campaigns like this isn't unheard of. I recall the Americans hitting Red Cross hospital in Iraq while that was going on - so in that sense I suppose it is easily believable.

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Sorry I wasn't really talking about Corbyn actually, I should have clarified. I looked at Corbyn's twitter feed and it's entirely Palestine focused other than one tweet right at the start which splits it both ways. I think that indicates he feels he's unable (or is unwilling) to express any support for Israel at all which I fundamentally disagree with. Israel fully deserved compassion and support for what happened to them in a manner that should have been expressed entirely independently from the need to acknowledge the suffering of Palestinians.

 

I was talking more about the general sense that the media and certain sides of the debate have run off with this hospital thing because they want Israel to be the villains - and that will be true (I'm going to stress that I actually reserved judgment on it but that's largely because by the time I was aware of it, doubts were already being surfaced) - but the same definitely does happen the other way too. We are all caught in a propaganda war on this and it's really hard to know what to make of it.

 

Reddit is awash with videos of absolutely horrifying scenes at the moment but I find it interesting that these videos are so well made, often with English descriptions of what is unfolding which naturally could be completely removed from reality. I think my views on this whole situation are fairly clear but I am wary of believing everything I'm seeing in all senses now.

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Corbyn has an obsession with Israel, and seems incapable of seeing any bad from the Palestinian side. I get that he feels strongly about the situation in Gaza and Israel's occupation of land etc, I think most self-respecting person would share the same opinion. But for a self-proclaimed humanitarian he doesn't half seem to disregard the Israelis and their human rights, purely by refusing to acknowledge and condemn when awful things happen to them.

 

I can only imagine how incendiary the relationship between Britain and Israel would have been over the last few weeks had he somehow managed to get in power.

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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6786fb22-6f6c-11ee-b0f3-053d83492f27?shareToken=00d6181ac973b5ffc23a089c55b0b484
 

Look at this piece of shit. You can say what you like about Corbyn (or Starmer) but the party is much more palatable to me now it has been purged of antisemites such as his old mate Williamson. 

Edited by Dr Gloom
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this article with quotes from the brilliant Israeli historian, author and peace activist Yuval Harari really resonated with me.
 

Particularly the point about how people can be both victim and perpetrator

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/24/yuval-noah-harari-backs-critique-of-leftist-indifference-to-hamas-atrocities

 

The 47-year-old, who has recently become a high-profile political activist in Israel, opposing Benjamin Netanyahu’s rightwing populist coalition and its plan to weaken judicial oversight, told the Guardian he intervened after speaking with peace activists in his home country who were “completely devastated” and “feeling abandoned and betrayed by supposed allies” in peace efforts, after academics, artists and intellectuals signed letters which failed to condemn Hamas.

 

Harari’s aunt and uncle lived in one of the kibbutzim targeted by Hamas in attacks that killed more than 1,400 people and saw more than 220 people taken hostage. They had survived after hiding while gunmen went house-to-house killing neighbours.

 

Speaking about the reaction from parts of the left in the US and Europe while on a visit to London, Harari said it was “shocking to hear some of the responses that did not only not condemn Hamas, but placed all responsibility on Israel” and to see “the lack of solidarity with regard to the horrific attacks on Israeli civilians”

 

He pointed to another statement by the Democratic Socialists of America on the day of the attacks which said: “Today’s events are a direct result of Israel’s apartheid regime.”

 

Giving the historical example of some US and European socialists supporting Stalin, he said: “This is not the first time the radical left, in pursuit of some fixed vision of justice, finds itself aligned with some very brutal movements and regimes.”

 

That approach may be founded in a “belief or fantasy that absolute justice is possible [where] one side is absolutely to blame for everything, including the crimes of the other side”.

 

“[But] reality is complex,” he said. “The same people can be victims and perpetrators at the same time. In most conflicts the blame for crimes and atrocities is not shared 100%/0% but somewhere in between. This is quite banal, but still people find it hard to accept this.”

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I agree with that but it's worth considering that this is more or less the position that the UN has just taken up with respect of Hamas, and Israel has just banned all UN delegates from entering the country as a result.

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2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

I agree with that but it's worth considering that this is more or less the position that the UN has just taken up with respect of Hamas, and Israel has just banned all UN delegates from entering the country as a result.


Yeah, I saw that and I don’t agree with it. Particularly since the UN secretary who made the comments about the vacuum also said no injustice to the Palestinians could justify the appalling attacks by Hamas.

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