Rayvin

---I tried to avoid writing an essay, I really did. Sorry.--- It is a fair point though. You must be able to see how by living in France, you are personally 'safe' from the consequences of this (which are very real btw, weekly foodshops alone have gone up considerably in price, and down considerably in options) and yet you're saying you'd vote to inflict these problems on the rest of us all over again if you could. That's before we get to people's livelihoods, relationships and ambitions being ruined. I know that if none of these things have touched you, it'll be hard to think that we're anything other than a group of people who are politically motivated in our bitching - an extension of the Labour/Tory, Left/Right culture war shit. But honestly as far as Brexit goes, we've watched and suffered through all of this together and idk man.. it's real. The consequences of this are very real. They are being felt. Some people may deny that this is the case, but those people are frankly liars or too rich to notice. Or possibly, to be at my most charitable, actively trying to avoid paying attention. So if you'd vote to do it again for some high concept political notion about sovereignty without being part of any rebuild, suffering or pain that the nation goes through, it is sort of difficult to read. I mean it almost seems like you just don't give a fuck about the rest of us and what we have to suffer as long as your political views win out. Are those views really so important to have been worth this? Does any of this improve your life at all? What it looks like to me, and what it has always looked like - and I say this as compassionately as possible because I do understand your reasons, and I even understand where the more racist tones of this at least come from (not from you, from elsewhere) - is that this whole thing has really kind of blown up in the faces of the people who voted for it, but because it became such a toxic argument, because so much of everyone's "pride" was on the line, no one was prepared to back down - and that has continued to this day, although leavers seemed to think that once it was done, they'd won; except now I think they're beginning to realise that there was no victory, there is just perpetual war. Brexit split the country in two, and while the negative consequences of it continue to be felt (and they will), it just isn't going to go away. People are being fucked by Brexit. Every day. How could it possibly go away as a political issue? I even left the Labour party over their new and improved stance on it, which I consider to be an infantilising refusal to state the truth. That truth being, that it was a harmful decision carried out in an even more harmful way. Maybe that's on remainers too, maybe if we'd gone at it less furiously, it would have allowed space for reconciliation - but there was never any indication from your side of the argument that this was going to be anything other than a smash and grab of the hardest Brexit possible - May announced as much almost on day fucking 1, and we resisted as intensely as we did because this is exactly where we knew we'd end up. A country run by a corrupt, incompetent party that does nothing other than enrich itself and its friends, whilst pulling the drawbridge up for the rest of us. They're cutting planned investments on infrastructure into the north, levelling up isn't happening, they don't give a fuck about the people who voted for this. Not a solitary fuck. And they are the ones we've just handed all of this power to, to cut new deals, to regenerate the economy, to paint a new vision for where this country goes. A vision with zero fucks given for ordinary people. And you can say "oh but we can vote them out again" except that 1 - the same lies that they spun to get Brexit to happen continue to work, and I'm quite certain that some people in this country could literally starve to death in the ballot station and their friends would step over their dead bodies and still vote Tory and 2 - it's still a 5 year prison sentence in people's lives, and our lives are not that fucking long. The EU was a fairly benign mess of an organisation which invested a lot in communities up and down the country, and which ensured prosperity for all those within it, to a reasonable degree. I do not on any level understand why anyone, ANYWHERE, can possibly think that Boris fucking Johnson or anyone presently within the front bench ranks of the Tory party is going to lead us to a more prosperous place than we already were. 10-15 years just to recover the damage, and then what, another 10-15 at best to see some sort of improvement? Almost an entire working lifetime. And Rees Mogg said it would be more like 50 years. All for some nebulous, high concept political idea about sovereignty that won't matter a single iota in 10 years time, let alone 30 or 50. The world will be completely different by then anyway. So it 100% feels like pointless suffering to some of us. I'm sorry mate, honestly, I don't at all think you're a bad guy but howay... is this really going to be worth all this misery?

It's an emotive issue for many of us in the end because it's actively fucking up our lives, no one can tell us why it was worth doing, and all we can see is the harm it's doing. I do genuinely believe we will be on our knees begging to rejoin in 5-10 years time, especially if the Tories remain at the helm throughout that period given how utterly shocking they are on economics. What gets me about all of this, even with the flag waving triumphalism of the moment itself, is that it's a national humiliation that the world and half of this country can see, but which those who voted for it cannot. I was proud of the UK, especially following the 2012 olympics. A great display of patriotism that really entrenched in me how much I loved the UK for all its faults. An international leader that punched above its weight and was respected around the world. Now it's just.. every time I see Johnson go up there in front of world leaders its a new humiliation. You asked before about facebook profile pictures - I'm not on facebook, but I'm more European in spirit than I am now British. Brexit literally stripped away the part of Britishness that I identified with. The outward looking, internationalist, rational and respectable country that it could be, replaced with a dark, introspective, hateful and corrupt nonsense of a state. Honestly, it's absolutely devastating what the Tories have allowed to happen to the UK with this. They're traitors to the country, all of them. All of them.

Honestly I've been trying to be more assertive lately anyway so you've just flat out triggered me with the suggestion that I'm being reasonable It's mostly for my benefit, the civil discourse. I get wound up really easily. Just ask ewerk, he's barely even trying anymore because there's no sport in it

I mean that response was aimed at Gemmill, not me I could have moved, but work made it difficult. Would have been a big risk, wasn't ready for it at the stage in life I was at. Would have taken a few more years of prep. Other than that, I don't think I've come off as any more reasonable than anyone else. My main frustration with Brexit has been the 2019 vote. The one before it was forgivable because we had no fucking clue what we were even talking about. I could write a couple of ranting essays if you want but you've all read them before - I pulled back from it mostly to avoid winding people up..!

I have fwiw. Might be surprising to hear, was a few years back, but it happened

For what it's worth mate, I spent several years reading a series of alt right, pro Brexit, anti cultural Marxism views. I've been called a nazi on here unironically before. I'm not in an echo chamber. I feel the way I do because of how I've processed how it affects me, and from what I've seen of the logic of the other side. It might be convenient to think that we're all coming at this from positions of just reading news that agrees with us, but at least for me, I'm not. I fully immersed myself in the other side of this. I still think it's mental though. But yes, everyone has a right to hold their views - including me.

Because I won't marry her, you think I want to dump her? I tend to see marriage as the kiss of death for relationships anyway, there's no part of me that wants any involvement with it. He's the most competent person available to deliver the Brexit that we ended up with. Everyone else, including many Tories, backed the fuck away from it. All I can see is that the next ten years of life in this country are going to be fucking hell. And when it's all over, we'll vote back in again anyway. I'm going to step back from this one now, it doesn't take much to bring me to full tirade on this due to how unbelievably frustrating it is. Still though, useful to understand your views so thanks for sharing.

I am a bit gutted to learn that you're living in France. Wish I'd be in a position to make that happen before it became impossible. My partner is French and we had to hurry her over here to be able to ensure we could continue being together at all. We made it, up until Priti decided that actually, everyone with Pre-settled status can be kicked out again a few weeks back (so who knows now) but going back the other way - the longer term plan - now likely involves me having to marry her or christ knows what sort of nonsense. Not big on marriage. Probably don't have a choice now. Still though, at least we're seeing all those benefits. Weekly food shop is costing a lot more and our economic recovery is lagging behind everyone else. I hate this country. Weird though, cos 5 years ago I was actually pretty keen on it.

Also this - this happened because the Tories went for full on hard Brexit right off the bat. There was no attempt at nuance, no compromise - you could have easily gotten everyone on here to agree to a Norway style option, as offered by Farage prior to the vote, after it had gone through. The whole thing would have been done and dusted. The Tories chose to make it an ideological purity test and we stood up against it because it was psychotic and unfair. We were right to do so. And the EU, no matter if we'd all been unified from the outset, would have had us over a barrel anyway because they were never going to be able to change their rules for us to cherry pick, no matter what we did. It would have undermined the whole union. They said this before we voted, during and after. And the position they took made complete, logical sense. Ours was based on delusion.

Brave post, respect for that. I think the original vote to leave, based on the range of considerations you've laid out there, is understandable. I don't agree with it, but then I'm a big believer in eventual movements to one world governance and the greater links that can be forged between nations through globalisation. So I'm a full EU federalist, basically. Greece was a corrupt basket case of a nation and brought a lot of what happened to it onto itself, but I also agree that the EU could have handled it better. That said, in a fully federalised EU with a fully realised central bank, I'm not sure that sort of thing happens so easily. The only part of the whole Brexit fiasco that I struggle with, as far as those who voted leave go, is the 2019 vote for Johnson. There's no ignorance at that point, we all damn well knew the guy was an incompetent fucking lunatic. The fact that he was the only person prepared to deliver the sort of Brexit that the people voting for it wanted should have said everything that needed to be known about how bad an idea it was. So on the original vote, I get it, I understand even if I disagree. Anyone voting for them in 2019 had no excuse though, that was just a very poor decision that we are all now paying for.

Fair enough

Here is the post you're referring to "Insisting". It's completely balanced man.

Aston Villa have played one more game than Everton and have 3 more points. If Everton win their game in hand, will they have been fully ushered away from any bother Both teams are a long way off us though, so I think neither has anything to worry about still

Is that for real? Seriously?

It doesn't really look like there's a big swell of support for Labour in there mind. I'm concerned that the large amounts of people who've lost faith in the Tories are simply further to the right now. I mean maybe that's fine tbh, the ex-UKIP crowd stay over there and the Tory vote remains split as it was pre-Brexit, but the disillusionment is real. "Will the UK be more unequal this year" is telling. Majority voted no. A ridiculous answer anyway, but one that suggests an overall right wing leaning.

There is no chance the British government would ever permit him to be sent for trial in America, so he may as well come out and say he did it and that he'd do it again for all that the "truth" matters. Some people are simply immune from the consequences that the rest of us have to deal with.

Happy New Year lads. I hope 2022 is a much kinder year to us all than 2021 was.

Aye. Even if it's as cynical as they're all claiming it is - and I suspect it is - they can't stack up a 19 club conspiracy to try and get us relegated, agree not to sell us players, and then bitch on about us using whatever is at our disposal to avoid that outcome. Welcome to the Premier League motherfuckers, there is no moral high ground.

Well played from the club.

That's a dangerous one though cos they're asking the same questions on their side about BLM, Occupy, etc. I don't personally trust the Tories to play that one fairly.

Having Trippier come in early doors would be a good statement of intent and would calm a lot of nerves. Botman looks like it's on the cards too, has persisted for a few weeks now. Not sure about Ramsay and I saw us linked to a Brazilian forward (Barbosa) earlier but apparently he'd take some convincing since he's not sure we'll be able to pick up any other big names. Whether any of these rumours hold any water, who knows.

Aye but we're a below average side that is very much at the start of a transitional period. He'll be a fine addition for this year and next, cover for a couple after, then done. Works for me.

As much as I enjoy the piss taking (and I do) I actually also enjoy reading Diego and Fish's takes on these things. They're both more informed than I am and it's interesting to see what they think. Cheers both

Aside from enjoying the technical development of the player, I think it speaks a lot to his mental toughness that he continued to stick it out here, didn't sulk, kept playing where he was asked to play - all the while he was increasingly coming under fire from the media (and honestly the fans as well - myself included). I'm really pleased for him that he's doing so well, and his determination will stand him in good stead for the future both inside and outside of football.

If I had to pick the best date for a season ending injury to hit a key player before we were safe, 27th of December would be right up there. Hope it's not as bad as it sounds but this is way better than it happening Jan 27th.