scoobos

Yup, and who's HMG striking desperate deals with now? some of his campaigners, who he distanced himself from, were giving out leaflets saying if he gets the second term he will forcefully extract Muslins, either by relocating or cleaning them!! Sickening. But again, what is it with the rise of this sort of politics in the past 15 years? Is it simply "the internet" and governments having thought police departments ? (we've got one , and we are "Free" - “Nudge Unit” | The Institute for Government )

There;s history to that. Unfortunately, it's never worked. I'm worried about the echos of the past , it's all going eerily similar. Sanctions on the scale we are doing are very similar to the Treaty of Versailles against Germany, they are probably the biggest cause of the rise of the Nazi party , due to hyperinflation. (not the UK though, cos its bullshit as usual - we are STILL buying Russian oil - our "sanction" only comes into effect in December (allegedly, but this has since been changed to "at some point in the future" - no doubt because HMG thought it would be over by then - the whole sanctioned oligarch delay due to "legal process" (which no other nation had), was just to enable the movement of liquid funds offshore to UK overseas terriritories) etc etc). UK to phase out Russian oil imports - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) - Whilst this transition takes place, the government recognises the need to continue to import Russia oil in the meantime as we work to this aim. This will help ensure continuity in our supply and protect consumers. Boris's bit in there - "Working with industry, we are confident that this can be achieved over the course of the year, providing enough time for companies to adjust and ensuring consumers are protected." So then, after reading that document, explain why everyone is thinking that increased energy prices or costs are anything to do with us "helping Ukraine" like the lying fuckwits are making out? The League of Nations failed just as the UN has now - because all bets are off once war starts. (league of nations plays it safe - echos of the past? League of Nations - HISTORY ) I fear, despite some great work by the BBC (Opening Onion sites so that the dark web can be used for Russians to see other news) - that our actions only bolster public opinion in Russia. BUT, that said - I was chatting last night on a Russian dark web forum (after a hard day on here!) and I think the perception we have that Russians support Putin , is mostly false in the educated population. It's very similar to the UK blaming foreigners for everything and wanting Brexit - in that mainly the old or less educated are supportive of it. Most people are just incredibly frightened of the repercussions of being known to be against the state. Obviously this is all just some chap on the internet , but people were discussing this new move by Russia in the past month, to encourage and reward citizens for reporting people who are "enemies of the state" - This harks back to the days of the NKVD. It's like History has gone full circle and no one is remembering what happened. Sanctions will not work. in so far as unseating Putin - they might if people were REALLY doing them (Both the USA and the UK will continue to purchase exactly the same amount of oil as they always have done, until December because *contractual agreements*, which is bollocks). I fear we are punishing the powerless general public - but we have to be seen to be trying to do something, I suppose.

FTFY

Ok, time at the bar please - More love, less anxiety driven news. I quit reading the news for a few days (and I felt guilty cos "ignorance") - but I think you can know too much .. First day I read it again, I'm hammering this thread! Escalation is unlikely, strategically. he's a madman but he's not quite got the cards up his sleeve that we thought he had. It's awful to use these terms, because human beings are dying on both sides - but he's embarrasing himself showing this capability. Rusty tanks and an inability to win a conventional war with his next door neighbour - after taking 6+ months to mobilise a sizable proportion of his total army. Ukraine (*cough* Rest of the World Alliance) will win here (strategically - of course, everyone loses on a human scale). Hope he has a massive fucking coronary through the sheer stress of it all.

Now I can cry that you're being harsh. Im in no ways saying surrender I'm saying let Ukraine defend itself with our assistance , but dont escalate. if we escalate we get a MAJOR war for years , all caused by him being a cnut. If we allow Ukraine to defend and kick him out - we WIN without major war in europe , because even Putin cannot withstand such an embarrasing and damaging loss. When Russia retreats, it's unfeasible to think that Russians are not going to turn against the regime - they will see what we are seeing now.

I get your point - but why do we appease Yemen? Arguably now Ukraine is the same - Donbas etc seperatists, backed by Russia and the other side is a coalition of many nations, led by the Ukraine? And yes, Putin is a fucking nightmare and needs dealing with, and I believe we finally are doing what we should have done with Crimea. Escalating warfare to drive into the russian heartlands (Liz Truss) is what got my debating blood up earlier and what I'm really ranting about.

There's always hope. people would have said the same during WW1 and 2. Humanity generally is brilliant - most things invented or made are made by people with good intentions. I have to do it again and bite though, because the numbers don't add up here: Number of invasions of foreign countries. Number of civilians killed Number of proxy armies created to destabilise countries. Since 1950 Not so much for being" reined in by the checks and balances that exist in Western democracies" I'd be VERY surprised if the US or Israel don't top that chart - or perhaps some African nations that have perpetual forward and back war.

Still drink there tbh, straight in after the game and served within minutes. Then within 10 more you cant move!

I think that the only way the war will end, is by a diplomatic agreement ratified and accepted by the United Nations. OR A coup against Putin - but I doubt that is possible in Russia. OR Putin dies , russia retreats and starts working with us again - I think (seriously hope) this is a distinct possibility. But anyway, lot of posts today forward and back ... In 1 paragraph I'm just sharing my belief that escalating or "doing something" is in no ones interest, no matter what we think our perceived cause is. We need to stop burning non essential fossil fuels NOW or we are all fucked. Collapse of ecosystems that support modern human life are a bigger threat than nuclear warfare to me - because , the "climate change" nukes are already in flight. One good thing that could come out of this and the pandemic is learning how to team up globally to shared goals. I've still hope.

I don't think there's a war that's ended without a diplomatic agreement, other than perhaps Iraq? (sorry for keeping on using that example). Personally, I'd love us to get on the negotiating table and call Putin's bluff with this: Leave Ukraine - Ceasefire (remain Crimea). For the "disputed" areas that you are saying have been victims of genocide : Let a United Nations negotiation team, including as many capitalist as non capitalist countries members - hold monitored and independently verified elections and let the citizens choose their nationality. If the majority win - then the territory can be Russian/ Ukranian - if it loses then let the seperatists retreat to Russia. Sounds fair and doesnt give him a leg to stand on. Ukraine will want retribution tho, and I'm not sure what the heck we could do with that - the Russians have caused billions of damage. I fear we're going to have a middle east situation on our doorstep. Or, we carry on as is, which is what I personally think is the accepted tactic - because Russia cannot win, if they were going to , they had to murder civilians with a shock and awe bombing campaign for 5 days straight , like we did in Iraq. The sad thing is, they resorted to dumb bombs and indescriminate artillery just 2 or 3 weeks later when they realised they weren't able to meet their targets. You cannot roll tanks and planes in , when they've got their defenses up. BIG mistake - they could have cruise missiled every single AA Battery they had. My main concern, as a hippy twat - is the immense loss of life and suffering that is, for now invisible, byt the fact that this war has probably already reduced our outstanding carbon budget by a year already - making hte IPCC report not "in the future" at all anymore.

That's interesting though isnt it. I'm not sure we can know either way. Is this happening BECAUSE of nato over expansion, or not? If we had kept to the North Atlantic , then I'd agree - but we've definitely expanded into territories that were contested after WW2. I'm NOT an expert (as you know) but I do remember in my History A Level learning that a lot of the USSR vs USA problems were caused by Russia effectively (in their view) winning the war, raising the flag over the Reichstag and losing millions of lives doing so - only to have the USA get the pick of deciding where Russia could occupy and where it couldnt. I think it became a pride thing, with either side slinging awful (but TRUE) shit at each other. Such as USA appeasment, the GM Motor Nazi war machine and IBM holocaust enabler - and then the USSR's appeasment, arms deals and sabotage.

A bit off topic, but seriously Rayvin - don't build a picture of me being a cunt to you or thinking bad - it is genuinely just debate on my side and I like to think I'm really moderate (I'm a hippy etc) - as I said before "Forgive the writing things as "fact" it's as much opinion as everyone else, it's just my style I suppose" I advocate mutal respect and love , I know thats a soft thing to say - but no one gains anything by getting all red faced and raging at each other. I'm no where close to that - and don't want my own posts to trigger anyone else to think that. I am debating, in my view , and you are as entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

I said if you believe Yemen is "complicated" because there are more than 2 sides - shows that maybe you've been hoodwinked. For example, there are more than 2 sides in this war in Ukraine right now - the seperatists, the loyalists / ukranians and russia. We are arming them in a "non specific country" way (or we were until Truss starting being a twat" - as the rest of the world saying "no" - we are not doing nothing as you suggest. We are actually doing more than I thought we would. and I would have believed it if the UK was cowering in the corner (as we more or less are) telling everyone that Putin wasn't such a bad guy and that he's just misunderstood (disclaimer, I'm not attributing that view to you, it's just an example of an opposing government line). Who's saying that? Which opposiing government is saying that. I think what Im saying is dont , for fucks sake start saying we've mobilised nuclear submarines ready to strike. Thats nuclear escalation and WE are doing it - just the UK.

It depends what you mean by attack. Lets say that someone backed Ireland and built a treaty organisation that had EIRE as a member - and then put missile launchers within striking distance of the UK on their ground. What did the US do, when the Soviets did that in Cuba? Also " opposing imperialist warmongering" - seriously, then we have to oppose our own actions in modern times. The USA is the biggest warmonger in the world and have killed more civilians in proxy "anti anti-capitalist" wars since WW2 .

Ah dont think that mate, its just debate. honest.

Saying he wont nuke us , is more confident than I am. Never underestimate a madman, especially one who appears to be ill / deranged. The Chinese had it's citizens literally eating people with alternative political views, The Kyhmer Rouge / Pol Pot killed millions of their own, etc etc.. I think to answer the question posed, If he did take Ukraine then we do nothing - and we escalate our defenses on the NATO borders - as international law allows. They couldn't join NATO for a number of reasons that suddenly are all forgotten now . No one is saying do nothing at all - we are arming Ukraine to the teeth and they are repelling the invasion, that is enough, if they lose then we need to re-evaluate, absorb the refugees (now theres something that the UK CAN DO and isnt - 2000 people in so far, 25,000 visas issued but with no way in..) Here's what got me so upset today: BBC Headlines: Kremlin "Europe Arming Ukraine is reducing their security". UK Response "Push Russia out of the WHOLE of Ukraine" - Truss, "Our nuclear submarines are mobilised and ready" <paraphrased, cos I cant find the quote, but its in a previous post> Ben Wallace US Response "We are not attacking Russia we are aiding Ukraine's defense". Now I for one am much more comfortable with the US Response - the UK one is the same as everything these utter utter fucktards have done - its strong words with no fucking plan behind them, that risk UK citizens lives. If we want to "save the world" and stop raping and pillaging we have to take a very long hard look at our foreign policy - we have appeased things as bad as Russia, we really have. We use child labour for our goods, we buy oil from countries with appalling histories and we arm aggressors all around the world, without blinking an eye. Now that's depressing I know - and again, I have to re-iterate my belief that arming Ukraine is the answer , helping them defend - but its probably as far as we can justifiably go. If you want to stop Rape, pillage, torture and illegal occupation , then we have to be honest and admit that a good 20-30% of our arms sales and training need to stop. Escalating a war will create a meat grinder , of human lives, ww2 style - all this talk of "modern warfare" seems to be bollox, no one has managed a decent victory with conventional weapons , except arguably us in Iraq but we bombed the absolute shit out of the capital city for 3 nights straight, spending billions on long range cruise missiles and bunker busters - murdering children through shockwaves in incubators in hospitals etc. Just cos we aren't shown it, doesn't mean that we somehow fight "cleaner" wars. We invented the word "Collateral Damage" during that war.

There's the award for saying in 1 sentence what I can't get out in 3 paragraphs!

If you think Yemen is more complicated you're just hoodwinked I'm afraid. It's total aggression. I have to question this though: "There are more nazis in the UK and Russia than there are in Ukraine, I'm not remotely interested in the war being justified by the existence of Azov. Women are being mass raped and war crimes are abundant. Azov are a footnote compared to this." Azov Battalion - Wikipedia _ they were "secret police" before the military arm and some are wanted for genocide and murder. How can you be selective like that? Azov are guilty of rape and war crimes BEFORE the invasion - now our media is saying there are no Nazis and they are bravely defending - I find that very upsetting how we can turn a blind eye to one side . Again, this is not justifying an invasion, more rallying against wartime propoganda of "Black and White" thinking. Esclating war is not an answer to avoid death - it will create more death. I'll get bloody conscripted too and trust me, you dont want 44 year old me defending us. I think you simplify it if you think that it is not even slightly understandable that Russia and it's allies believe NATO to be aggressive or expanding in a provocative way. We've been putting "defensive" weapons in firing distance of Moscow for the last decade, you know? It's been used as an arm of US policy for too long - but Europe and its members are partly to blame here, by not funding it fairly. The clue should be in the name "North Atlantic Treaty" not eastern europe. The Russians are dangerous but so are the Americans. Proxy wars have created the taliban, Al'Q, Hamas, so much. Give peace a chance. Defensive only is the way to win this. the UK has fuck all right to be talking about "not resting until we take Crimea back" - there is no WE - Its Ukraine vs Russia and it needs to stay that way.

No price change , and seems like a short window to renew this year?

No. Forgive the writing things as "fact" it's as much opinion as everyone else, it's just my style I suppose. I think you're being drawn into it by our own media propoganda. We ARE escalating it now, for our own domestic political reasons. Tories don't give a fuck about oppression or illegal occupation or we wouldnt support Isreal, Saudi etc. We've gone from one oppressive country to another for our Oil. I mean is anyone talking about the "Brave Mariupol (sp?) defenders" in truth, you know that the Azov regiment are actually nazis and have lynced people publically Taliban style? Don't get me wrong, I support the world supporting Ukraine and Russia is the agressor, but aggression is not the answer - showing them our power by completely blocking them is the answer. World lessons are here - the world is almost going down the road of the Treaty of Versailles and it doesn't work - creating hyperinflation raises support for the war, it doesn't dent it. Giving them assistance with Weapons etc is one thing, but making declarations of wanting to attack russian soil is completely different and we are then putting ourselves in the position of proving Putin's paranoia correct, that we were just looking for an excuse. - They are NOT a NATO country - so as sad as it seems - do you get as upset about the Yemen? Do you feel a need to do anything there? Why not? Because its not close to home. We do nothing because we profit from it , is the brutal truth - just the same as our government saying how much they care - to make money and protect their own power. Ukraine can deal with this and keep their honor, there is absolutely fuck all need for the fuckwits in power now to start pretending that they can plan anything . They have fucked up everything they have touched in the last 3 years, whats going to be different now? Nuclear war is suicide, its mutually assured destruction - there is no deterrent needed other than that. The world has the worst leaders at the worst possible time, and I personally put a lot of blame on the Internet.

Can someone assasinate Liz Truss asap please - she's a fucking danger. I'm really as frightened of her being in this position as I am the situation escalating. These stupid fuckers will use anything to try and look "strong" and doing something. Kicking Russia out of Ukraine by Ukrainians fine - but lets not start making PUBLIC fucking declarations that we wont rest until they are kicked out of Crimea and then some. Or that we have "our brave men and women deep under the sea <in nuclear submarines> ready to defend our country" , whilst simultaneously sabre rattling harder than anyone and putting ourselves in the fucking frame. Ben Wallace's statement is sure to be subtitled, edited and used to make Russians think we're mobilised to Nuke them. FFS - It's so fucking transparent that this is just "Save Big Dog" or whatever bollox. Meanwhile - just how much PUBLIC money is again going into the FUCKING PRIVATE SECTOR - these arms are NOT free and its more public money going to companies that Tory donors have interests in. Two months ago we couldn't afford to protect our own nation against Covid anymore. Now as 1500 people die OF Covid in the last 7 recorded days - it's fucking tragic, BAE Systems should be a nationalised industry.

The Sherriff is a near.

Cheers again for sharing this, I've got a wry smile out of it every day since.. But this is a belter today: "We are up sh*t creek without a paddle and there is a hole in the canoe and non of us can swim and we haven't got life jackets and the water is full of crocodiles."

I hope we hammer them. I never had a problem with Liverpool until the last time they won the premiership and bought little pockets of seats all over the place . Why? It was the first (and hopefully last time) that I saw a little old lady get punched in the face by a fully grown scouse man, in the gallowgate, right near the goal - it bust her nose and there was blood everywhere (i dont know if he was aiming for her, lets hope not, I just heard the kick off). Then the *idjit* stewards proceed to harrass all the home fans that who retaliated and let this scum bag walk back over from the gallowgate to the 1892 seat area. 10 minutes later there were 10 or so police at the 1892, so hopefully they did get the cnut. Lower than low that like.

I doubt it , tbh - because (not necessarily accurate here!) - 2 or 3 years ago they changed the website and you had to do some funky account linking thing that resulted in me losing loyalty points etc. For my mates who have had 10 year deals (that in some cases are lasting 15!) - this didnt apply as they were transferred automagically - so maybe they are traceable. I was lucky / unlucky , in that I jacked my ticket in under Bruce, but then missed the weekends with the lads too much - so bought a ticket again, at the start of this season. But now Im in the east stand paddock, rather than the gallowgate with them - there's no chance I'll get my seat back now.