Another Shooting in America

[ADP 0]

This was on bbc newsfeed yesterday: 'Truly shocking: in 2009 (latest year) 31,347 killed by firearms in US. Almost as many as road accidents'.

[CleeToonFan 1]

That's more than were at our Europa League games...

[Toonpack 6867]

That's a ridiculous position to take. You're essentially saying that there's fuck all that can be done.

 

Unsurprisingly the statistics show that states with tougher gun control have fewer gun related deaths.

 

Link ?? I would guess the lower gun crime States are actually those with better education and less poverty

 

If they changed the law, who's going to give the guns back, the "law abiding" nice people is who, the nutters and scum won't.

 

Also can you apply the law to everyone on the continent ?? the pic below is a one, one of my mates took, at the bottom of his "yard". Mummy bear and cubs turned up later when the male had fucked off. He lives WAY out in the sticks around a small town where the only major employer for decades has been a timber yard.

 

Wolves have also been reintroduced/returned, his neighbours dog was taken a couple of years ago from the garden (yard), those folks won't want to give up their guns and given the environment and why should they.

 

You just cannot equate the UK with the USA

 

 

[CleeToonFan 1]

This education arguments bullshit. That dickhead at the Batman premiere was no dipshit and the lad who's done this isnt thick. In the tiny amount of cases like the one of your mate where they may need guns TP, how many need semi automatics? Or 20 of em? The law should change and they should force these 'nutters' to give them back. You CAN equate the UK with the US. You just prefer not to.

[Toonpack 6867]

This education arguments bullshit. That dickhead at the Batman premiere was no dipshit and the lad who's done this isnt thick. In the tiny amount of cases like the one of your mate where they may need guns TP, how many need semi automatics? Or 20 of em? The law should change and they should force these 'nutters' to give them back. You CAN equate the UK with the US. You just prefer not to.

 

No you can't, it is a completely different culture, not to mention it's a continent not a country. As recently as 150 years ago they fought a war internally that killed something like 600,000 people. The national psyche is WAY different.

[The Fish 9006]

No problem with people in the sticks owning a hunting rifle or shotgun. However, Toonpack, there is no reason for people in suburbia having an arsenal that puts some small countries to shame. Why do people need machine guns?

 

There is a huge difference between Joey McShootsabear having the facility to protect his home from wild animals and some dickhead hosing a room full of kids in a school.

 

Your friend needs a gun to ward off Yogi and chums? Fine, I'm sure he won't mind going through a rigorous vetting process.

 

America needs to grow the fuck up.

[ADP 0]

No you can't, it is a completely different culture, not to mention it's a continent not a country. As recently as 150 years ago they fought a war internally that killed something like 600,000 people. The national psyche is WAY different.

 

I agree with that like. They are a militaristic country fundamentally. Guns have become imbedded into their identity in a way which is unparalleled in any other country.

 

 

Sadly, I cannot foresee a ban on guns (or any hard gun legislation) ever coming into place.

[Gejon 2]

No problem with people in the sticks owning a hunting rifle or shotgun. However, Toonpack, there is no reason for people in suburbia having an arsenal that puts some small countries to shame. Why do people need machine guns?

 

There is a huge difference between Joey McShootsabear having the facility to protect his home from wild animals and some dickhead hosing a room full of kids in a school.

 

Your friend needs a gun to ward off Yogi and chums? Fine, I'm sure he won't mind going through a rigorous vetting process.

 

America needs to grow the fuck up.

 

Spot on.

[Toonpack 6867]

No problem with people in the sticks owning a hunting rifle or shotgun. However, Toonpack, there is no reason for people in suburbia having an arsenal that puts some small countries to shame. Why do people need machine guns?

 

There is a huge difference between Joey McShootsabear having the facility to protect his home from wild animals and some dickhead hosing a room full of kids in a school.

 

Your friend needs a gun to ward off Yogi and chums? Fine, I'm sure he won't mind going through a rigorous vetting process.

 

America needs to grow the fuck up.

 

Can't understand assault weapons being privately owned personally, but they are great fun to fire

 

Seriously, how can you reel it back in, I mean really seriously.

 

There was a worse massacre in Norway, Shipman killed more people with a syringe. McVeigh made a bomb and killed 168.

 

The nutters will find a way.

 

I doubt the availability of firearms was the catalyst that made someone deranged enough to kill bairns en masse.

[Monkeys Fist 38787]

 

 

Can't understand assault weapons being privately owned personally, but they are great fun to fire

 

Seriously, how can you reel it back in, I mean really seriously.

 

There was a worse massacre in Norway, Shipman killed more people with a syringe. McVeigh made a bomb and killed 168.

 

The nutters will find a way.

 

I doubt the availability of firearms was the catalyst that made someone deranged enough to kill bairns en masse.

Why give the nutters the extra option of guns though?

[The Fish 9006]

Can't understand assault weapons being privately owned personally, but they are great fun to fire

 

Seriously, how can you reel it back in, I mean really seriously.

 

There was a worse massacre in Norway, Shipman killed more people with a syringe. McVeigh made a bomb and killed 168.

 

The nutters will find a way.

 

I doubt the availability of firearms was the catalyst that made someone deranged enough to kill bairns en masse.

Course it wasn't the catalyst, it was the tool. Psycho has a knife maybe kills one or two before people escape or overpower him. Psycho has a gun, who knows how many people die. Guns don't make people violent, guns make violence easy.

 

I can't believe you're pro-gun. I mean you're using the internet and forming real sentences and everything .

[Gemmill 34563]

Honestly, it's such a fucking stupid thing to say that "the nutters will find a way". It's the exact argument you came up with last time we had this discussion, and now, as then, it should be pointed out to you that their potential for murder might not be diminished by removing their access to guns, but their potential for mass murder or killing sprees would be. And that should be blindingly obvious.

 

And if you want to use Shipman as an example, I'd take them having to have the brains to get through 6 years of medical school over them being able to walk into their local gun store.

[Toonpack 6867]

Why give the nutters the extra option of guns though?

 

But how do you take them away?? it's not like they've just been introduced they've always been there, it's a VERY young nation and guns have by necessity (in the early years of the country) always been there, their very constitution empowers the right to bear arms, (to protect the people from the government, is the reason) it's been there from the start.

 

Their country was built by the gun and very recently in historical terms, our was build by the sword but that was a long long time ago. The american equivalent of my great grandfather was killing his fellow countrymen in a civil war.

[Toonpack 6867]

Course it wasn't the catalyst, it was the tool. Psycho has a knife maybe kills one or two before people escape or overpower him. Psycho has a gun, who knows how many people die. Guns don't make people violent, guns make violence easy.

 

I can't believe you're pro-gun. I mean you're using the internet and forming real sentences and everything .

 

I am not pro gun per se (in the America context) but I can't fathom how you can revert it.

 

I do object to the fact that I am not allowed to own one though (and yes I'd happily go through all the checks anyone could want).

 

Then again I also object that I can't protect my home from a burglar (for example) with the force I see fit at the time (if the need arose) even without a firearm.

 

Honestly, it's such a fucking stupid thing to say that "the nutters will find a way". It's the exact argument you came up with last time we had this discussion, and now, as then, it should be pointed out to you that their potential for murder might not be diminished by removing their access to guns, but their potential for mass murder or killing sprees would be. And that should be blindingly obvious.

 

And if you want to use Shipman as an example, I'd take them having to have the brains to get through 6 years of medical school over them being able to walk into their local gun store.

 

The perpetrator didn't just "walk into a gun store".

 

Given America's short (and bloody) history, and associated gun culture, how do you reel it in, I can't see a way

 

If you are of a deranged-mind to go "on a spree" you will find the means. Most of these mass murder "nutters" aren't from the dregs of society they plan and they act.

[Gemmill 34563]

 

I am not pro gun per se (in the America context) but I can't fathom how you can revert it.

 

I do object to the fact that I am not allowed to own one though (and yes I'd happily go through all the checks anyone could want).

 

Then again I also object that I can't protect my home from a burglar (for example) with the force I see fit at the time (if the need arose) even without a firearm.

 

 

 

The perpetrator didn't just "walk into a gun store".

 

Given America's short (and bloody) history, and associated gun culture, how do you reel it in, I can't see a way

 

If you are of a deranged-mind to go "on a spree" you will find the means. Most of these mass murder "nutters" aren't from the dregs of society they plan and they act.

 

If you remove the absurdly easy access to these guns, then you remove the means. At the very least it makes it a lot more difficult. To just shrug your shoulders and go "Ah look man they'd do it anyway, so lets make it really easy for them" is pretty stupid.

 

And to suggest that it would make no difference whatsoever cos "nutters gonna spree-kill" is wrong and also stupid. At the very least they could at least try to make things more difficult ffs.

 

It's not my job to find a way. It's the job of the politicians and the lawmakers.

[Toonpack 6867]

If you remove the absurdly easy access to these guns, then you remove the means. At the very least it makes it a lot more difficult. To just shrug your shoulders and go "Ah look man they'd do it anyway, so lets make it really easy for them" is pretty stupid.

 

And to suggest that it would make no difference whatsoever cos "nutters gonna spree-kill" is wrong and also stupid. At the very least they could at least try to make things more difficult ffs.

 

It's not my job to find a way. It's the job of the politicians and the lawmakers.

 

It's WAY too late

[Gemmill 34563]

So you just do nothing then. Great.

[PaddockLad 14616]

It's WAY too late

 

Physically, that may well be true.

 

But why not even attempt it?...there are countless immense changes that have been implemented in our own country that have fundamentally changed peoples lives for the better. Under one Home Secretary in the 60s this country abolished the death penalty, then made abortion and homosexuality legal. That was one man, Roy Jenkins. He beleived that these things would make this country a better place. The Human Rights Movement in the same decade in the US made life better for millions in the US too.

 

No one has seriously dared try to legislate for gun control in the US, but with the Republicans possibly dead in the water election wise because of the changing voting demorgraphic (i.e. millions of recent immigrants to the US not being natural Republican voters, to say the least) now is the perfect time to try it. Am not saying it would work straight away, but if the tide is changing demorgraphically no amount of NRA money will get the Republicans back into the Whitehouse for the foreseable future. Congress and The Senate are different beasts obviuosly, but change has to come from the top and if there is another Demorcrat President next time (likely iyam) then now is the perfect chance to start fighting for gun control. You have to start somewhere. Not easy, but nothing monumentally different ever is.

Edited December 15, 2012 by PaddockLad

[The Fish 9006]

How to stop it?

 

Make guns prohibitively expensive with huge taxes on them and bullets

Make those wanting guns go through rigorous checks and rigorous firearm safety training

Make it illegal to own anything but Hunting firearms or semi-automatic handguns

Have those who want to own a gun give a reason beyond "We always have had them and it's our right"

 

 

and that's off the top of my head after 2 glasses of mulled wine (thanks alex)

[Toonpack 6867]

Physically, that may well be true.

 

But why not even attempt it?...there are countless immense changes that have been implemented in our own country that have fundamentally changed peoples lives for the better. Under one Home Secretary in the 60s this country abolished the death penalty, then made abortion and homosexuality legal. That was one man, Roy Jenkins. He beleived that these things would make this country a better place. The Human Rights Movement in the same decade in the US made life better for millions in the US too.

 

No one has seriously dared try to legislate for gun control in the US, but with the Republicans possibly dead in the water election wise because of the changing voting demorgraphic (i.e. millions of recent immigrants to the US not being natural Republican voters, to say the least) now is the perfect time to try it. Am not saying it would work straight away, but if the tide is changing demorgraphically no amount of NRA money will get the Republicans back into the Whitehouse for the foreseable future. Congress and The Senate are different beasts obviuosly, but change has to come from the top and if there is another Demorcrat President next time (likely iyam) then now is the perfect chance to start fighting for gun control. You have to start somewhere. Not easy, but nothing monumentally different ever is.

 

 

Roy Jenkins has a lot to answer for, since when has abortion improved lives, (except in maybe rape/severe disability of the child cases) similarly the death penalty (yes I am firmly in the pro camp).

 

Look what happens when a copper here shoots an armed piece of shit, riots. Try taking the guns back over there by force it'd be armageddon.

 

Even with the firearms ploriferation gun crime in the states is falling year on year. The guns used in this spree (the one's used against those poor kids) were legally owned by a schoolteacher, she'd have passed any tests you'd likely want to institute, it probably wouldn't have stopped this. Why she wanted firearms is another matter of course. But even with strickter rules I doubt this could have been avoided.

[Toonpack 6867]

How to stop it?

 

Make guns prohibitively expensive with huge taxes on them and bullets

Make those wanting guns go through rigorous checks and rigorous firearm safety training

Make it illegal to own anything but Hunting firearms or semi-automatic handguns

Have those who want to own a gun give a reason beyond "We always have had them and it's our right"

 

 

and that's off the top of my head after 2 glasses of mulled wine (thanks alex)

 

But they're the big killers.

 

As I mentioned earlier the teacher would likely have passed the tests.

[Toonpack 6867]

So you just do nothing then. Great.

 

They are doing something, deaths from firearms are reducing in the USA they are way down from 20 years ago that fact gets lost when a nutter goes off.

[PaddockLad 14616]

Roy Jenkins has a lot to answer for, since when has abortion improved lives, (except in maybe rape/severe disability of the child cases) similarly the death penalty (yes I am firmly in the pro camp).

 

Look what happens when a copper here shoots an armed piece of shit, riots. Try taking the guns back over there by force it'd be armageddon.

 

Even with the firearms ploriferation gun crime in the states is falling year on year. The guns used in this spree (the one's used against those poor kids) were legally owned by a schoolteacher, she'd have passed any tests you'd likely want to institute, it probably wouldn't have stopped this. Why she wanted firearms is another matter of course. But even with strickter rules I doubt this could have been avoided.

 

Not if you made it illegal for a teacher to own firearms you wouldnt. This is the worst school shooting in US history. Does that statement not make you think that whatever could be done to prevent another, should be done? It happens regularly every year in the US, that alone makes it worthwhile; at the very least children should feel safe in their school, thats a basic human right for them and their parents, and if youre suggesting the right to bear arms is a greater one then words aren't enough to sum you up really .

 

Its one thing to say that it's impossible to carry out, but you seem to think that because its difficult nothing should be done. And you're entitled to your view on abortion, but you're in a minority on that in this country, to say the least. We haven't had Gynaenocologists legally carrying out their work being shot dead regularly in this country either...wonder why?...

Edited December 15, 2012 by PaddockLad

[Tooj 17]

 

This is Victoria. She died a hero today. She hid her first graders in the cabinets and closets after hearing the gunfire. When the shooter came to her classroom, she told him that her students were in the gym. He then gunned her down and moved on. She saved the lives of all of her students.

[NJS 3981]

Again you have to question the logic leap when a teacher hears gun fire and assumes its a nutter who's there to shoot kids - just that associatve link should wake them up.

 

I feel really sorry for the kids and their families but as far as I'm concerned I have no sympathy for America as a conceptual entity or the population as a whole - they just don't question how fucked up they are.