Rayvin 4964 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 Oh and as for the avatar. Yeah I can now see that too and am concerned you've ruined it for me  Hopefully my brain writes it off as a feverish delusion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30396 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 1 hour ago, ewerk said: I mean they literally voted for this guy. I think you've too much faith in the British public. Worth remembering less than half did. I mean it doesn’t say a lot for those who did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17765 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 22 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Ok well I'm fully with you on Israel now. Not remotely close to being an important issue for the Labour Party. Even if we should be worrying about human rights, and I'm not sure we have the capacity for that at present, we should be directing it in a far more widespread way. Continuously harping on about Israel to the exclusion of all others frankly is antisemitic.  As for the EU - I don't see us rejoining any time soon either, but I don't think that's the platform Labour should stand on. It should be about making the best of where we are, all the while being very up front about why things are shit, and trying to encourage useful dialogue around the issue instead of pretending it isn't happening.  @Renton my issue now isn't really Starmer, it's the whole party. I'm as sick of Corbyn and his tribe (why are they even still relevant, why have they not fucked off?!) as I am of what I perceive to be a collective issue with the Labour moderates in their total lack of strategic vision.  I saw an article about Obama just now, saying its time for the rich to pay a bit more in taxes. He then clarified that this meant him too. Perfect - acknowledges his own wealth, acknowledges that he could do more, doesn't make a big fuss about it but lands the point. Still exudes leadership even now.  I wonder quite often why we don't have more Blairs and Obamas (flawed though they both were) and my leading theory is that they probably do exist, even within party machinations, but that every other political figure within a party thinks they can be the same thing, lacking the self awareness necessary to see that they're nothing of the sort. But your Blair and Obamas have to fight through these people to get to the position where they can take control, and it doesn't seem to happen that often. I mean I can't think of anyone in Labour who fits the bill but they must exist, surely.  For me, Starmer is a Biden. Can't win off his own back but maybe could win if his opponent was horrifying enough. And given that I've been pretty impressed with Biden in general, that's not a bad thing to be. I would still prefer something better though.  Yeah, the appalling quality of politicians today, at all levels and sides of the political spectrum, and also internationally, is somewhat of a head scratcher. I mean out of 330 million people is Biden really the best you can do? Even if lets say he is in the top 99.999% of ability, in the US there should still be tens of thousands of better candidates. And the diminution of quality over the years is very noticeable in bot the US and our country. Take Thatcher, universally loathed maybe but it's hard not to admire what she achieved as a woman from her background. Even Major who felt ridiculously under qualified at the time was one hell of a statesman compared with the present bunch. Then Blair, Brown, and the Eton brigade took charge and ruined the country. And look at the Ozzie contingent. Anglophone politics is a mess, with the possible exceptions of Canada and NZ (neither of which are real countries anyway). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19822 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 Hear Major talk about Brexit, Afghanistan, the Tory party and Britain‘s role in the world and he seems reasonable and thoughtful. Not the back to basics bell end I recall from the early 90s  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3978 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 He was definitely almost human for a tory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 Starmer has just said that winning an election is more important than party unity. Seems fair enough taken at face value, but as one commenter BTL on the guardian put it "its like saying buying food is more important than having money". I think we can assume that this is his threat to the left to like it or lump it though. My guess is they go for the latter and head off to the Greens, further reinforcing how important it is that we have an electoral pact.  His speech tomorrow is going to have to be stellar tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17765 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 Hopes its like the Kinnock speech in Bournemouth 1985. He was another politician widely derided but he got the party back on the right track. Only for the lunatics to come back 30 years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 You mean he'll create the path for someone better? Maybe. That could be it. Â I just hope PR comes along with this somewhere because we really need to change the record. I'm completely fine with sacrificing the Labour Party to kill the Tory Party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17765 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 (edited) PR is the holy grail. It was for me when I was an activist in the 90s (not a very active activist btw). Looks as far away now as then so like reversing Brexit I won't hold my breath. Edited September 28, 2021 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3603 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 i hate to break it to you folks, but the great British public don't vote on policy or Labour would have won every election in the last 40 years.  They repeatedly support labour policies but the vote in the tories. They basically vote for whichever leader they like he best, and the Labour leader always has to overcome an overwhemingly hostile media. All this policy/tactical discussion is irrelevant. people are idiots 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19822 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 1 minute ago, spongebob toonpants said: i hate to break it to you folks, but the great British public don't vote on policy or Labour would have won every election in the last 40 years.  They repeatedly support labour policies but the vote in the tories. They basically vote for whichever leader they like he best, and the Labour leader always has to overcome an overwhemingly hostile media. All this policy/tactical discussion is irrelevant. people are idiots Yeah, you’re not wrong. The country is full of cretins. We probably need our own charismatic bullshit artist to defeat Johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3978 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 59 minutes ago, Rayvin said: You mean he'll create the path for someone better? Maybe. That could be it.   I suggested that when Starmer won.  Only problem is the only talk of anyone so far is Wes Streeting.  Beyond that - Cooper? , Burnham? - not exactly inspiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30396 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 4 hours ago, NJS said: He was definitely almost human for a tory. Had the advantage of replacing the evil cunt too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 An observation: The Guardian are sticking as many knives into Starmer as they did into Corbyn. Whose side are they even on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinRobin 9204 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Rayvin said: An observation: The Guardian are sticking as many knives into Starmer as they did into Corbyn. Whose side are they even on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fish 8989 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 12 hours ago, Dr Gloom said: Yeah, you’re not wrong. The country is full of cretins. We probably need our own charismatic bullshit artist to defeat Johnson. But I don't want to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26326 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 Andy Burnham will do well when he's leader but I don't think he's in any rush to go back to Westminster just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30396 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 14 hours ago, Rayvin said: Starmer has just said that winning an election is more important than party unity.... He was asked what was more important. He couldn’t really say anything else. It’s a stupid fucking question but it’s no surprise people are using it as a stick to beat him with (not you btw). As you allude to later, the likes of the Guardian should ask themselves - what’s more important, winning the argument or winning the election? They’re obsessed with the former 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26326 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 "My dad was a tool maker. Although in a way so was Boris Johnson's." - Best line of Starmer’s speech so far. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 Have to say actually, what I've grasped of the supposed headlines of Starmers speech so far I am fully behind. I'm a huge believer in mental health issues being the root of many problems and his strategy of making resources available to all children is a real winner for me. Think of all the damaged people that could help, and the positive knock on consequences for society. Â Didn't see that coming but it has softened me towards him. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 And long term strategy orientation for businesses. And affordable housing.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34441 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021  He just lost Quiff's vote. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26326 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, Rayvin said: And long term strategy orientation for businesses. And affordable housing.  He’s nearly gone full Blair, just needs to promise an illegal war now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26326 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 Laura Pidcock showing her class there. Like an impetuous child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19822 Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 39 minutes ago, ewerk said: Laura Pidcock showing her class there. Like an impetuous child. what happened? i missed the speech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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