Rayvin 4964 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Renton said: You go too far the other way on nationalism though. Trivialising us as an irrelevance is stupid, we are still the 5th/6th biggest economy in the world (much bigger than Russia) and have a relatively large military presence. We are big players, although clearly diminishing. I just see nuclear deterrence as an insurance policy given the chaotic state the world is in. If Trump can get elected, I want an independent nuclear deterrent from the US, for instance. To me its common sense, to most this board, obviously not. Again though, under what circumstances we would be nuked? How do we make someone angry enough to nuke us? Moreover, what difference does it really make if we nuke them back? Edited June 3, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonatine 10120 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26762 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 19 minutes ago, Renton said: Corbyn is just one man, the majority of his parliamentary party disagree with him on this. He can be a leader, whilst respecting the majority view of the party. He doesn't expect everyone to go veggie, tee total, and manhole hunt does he? What am saying is the party can take a line which he may not personally agree with but supports anyway. Be a bit savvy and try to nullify it as a non issue and focus on the important stuff. He's failed to do this and it could cost him seats. Uh, isn't it exactly what he has done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4003 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Again though, under what circumstances we would be nuked? How do we make someone angry enough to nuke us? Moreover, what difference does it really make if we nuke them back? I think it's perfectly understandable for the younger generation who have lived through peaceful times to have a different outlook to older generations who lost loved ones in the last world war. Wars for us are the normal state of affairs throughout history, not peacetime. Who is to say that 20/30 years from now the EU has crumbled and AI has killed off a lot of jobs. Right rises again in Germany and history repeats. That's where a deterrent gives us some protection. i know it seems unlikely given 70 years of peace, but for the sake of a very small amount of the national spend, I'd rather we had it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: I think it's perfectly understandable for the younger generation who have lived through peaceful times to have a different outlook to older generations who lost loved ones in the last world war. Wars for us are the normal state of affairs throughout history, not peacetime. Who is to say that 20/30 years from now the EU has crumbled and AI has killed off a lot of jobs. Right rises again in Germany and history repeats. That's where a deterrent gives us some protection. i know it seems unlikely given 70 years of peace, but for the sake of a very small amount of the national spend, I'd rather we had it. Ok sure, but given Labour has committed to trident in it's manifesto, so what does any of the above have to do with Corbyn and the present? It's just a distraction. We're under no threat whatsoever of being nuked presently. Edited June 3, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13900 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 CT I'm not worried about robot nazis mate, I'd just like something in return for the taxes I'm paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4003 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Ok sure, but given Labour has committed to trident in it's manifesto, so what does any of the above have to do with Corbyn and the present? It's just a distraction. We're under no threat whatsoever of being nuked presently. I don't think he's helped himself by saying that Trident won't be left out of the defence review that takes place weeks after he becomes PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13900 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 A trident test failed didn't it? Sounds like it needs reviewing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3992 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 39 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: I think it's perfectly understandable for the younger generation who have lived through peaceful times to have a different outlook to older generations who lost loved ones in the last world war. Wars for us are the normal state of affairs throughout history, not peacetime. Who is to say that 20/30 years from now the EU has crumbled and AI has killed off a lot of jobs. Right rises again in Germany and history repeats. That's where a deterrent gives us some protection. i know it seems unlikely given 70 years of peace, but for the sake of a very small amount of the national spend, I'd rather we had it. You're a couple of years younger than me and in our lifetimes there's never been any where near any war that warranted conscription and that couldn't have been avoided easily with common sense. It also included humiliations like Suez. One of the failings of our education system is the emphasis on empire and the military - alright in its place but we should have moved on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3992 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Renton said: You go too far the other way on nationalism though. Trivialising us as an irrelevance is stupid, we are still the 5th/6th biggest economy in the world (much bigger than Russia) and have a relatively large military presence. We are big players, although clearly diminishing. What's the point of pissing about on the world stage when disabled people are starving to death? The nationalism so loved by the right of the monarchy, CofE, aristocracy, military and empire is exactly that which scapegoats the poor - it's about time somebody redefined patriotism to be about things that actually matter - it's just a shame that one of those things - the NHS - will extend the lives and influence of people who don't deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20103 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Renton said: Corbyn is just one man, the majority of his parliamentary party disagree with him on this. He can be a leader, whilst respecting the majority view of the party. He doesn't expect everyone to go veggie, tee total, and manhole hunt does he? What am saying is the party can take a line which he may not personally agree with but supports anyway. Be a bit savvy and try to nullify it as a non issue and focus on the important stuff. He's failed to do this and it could cost him seats. This is the crux of the matter. I'm willing him on here but he doesn't do himself any favours. Last night felt like a chance squandered for the same old reasons after a really good week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 18013 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 22 minutes ago, NJS said: What's the point of pissing about on the world stage when disabled people are starving to death? The nationalism so loved by the right of the monarchy, CofE, aristocracy, military and empire is exactly that which scapegoats the poor - it's about time somebody redefined patriotism to be about things that actually matter - it's just a shame that one of those things - the NHS - will extend the lives and influence of people who don't deserve it. I don't see nuclear deterrence as pissing about on the world stage at all. In fact quite the opposite. I'd be quite happy to cut back on conventional forces in the knowledge that no nation state can attack us. Also fuck off with the false dichotomy. It's not Trident OR welfare. It's quite possible to have both. It reminds me of the ridiculous arguments against space exploration because the money could be used to feed Africa. I always say if that's the case what about everything else? Why do we watch football players being paid obscene amounts when that money could be redirected to more worthy causes? As for the rest, can't see how it relates to nuclear deterrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 20103 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, ewerk said: Actually he didn't, he was consistent with his previous statements in that he wouldn't consider a first strike but a retaliatory strike would depend on circumstances. "If we did use it, millions are going to die. You have to think this thing through," Mr Corbyn said. "I would decide on the circumstances at the time," he said. Seems like a responsible approach to me. He said he would consider it, he refused to commit to using them in a retaliatory strike. I would prefer a world without nuclear weapons but I'm inclined to agree with Renton here - what's the point in spending all this money on trident if the leader refuses to commit to using them? Makes the deterrent argument completely pointless. all he had to do was say he would be prepared to use them in certain circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3992 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Renton said: I don't see nuclear deterrence as pissing about on the world stage at all. In fact quite the opposite. I'd be quite happy to cut back on conventional forces in the knowledge that no nation state can attack us. Also fuck off with the false dichotomy. It's not Trident OR welfare. It's quite possible to have both. It reminds me of the ridiculous arguments against space exploration because the money could be used to feed Africa. I always say if that's the case what about everything else? Why do we watch football players being paid obscene amounts when that money could be redirected to more worthy causes? As for the rest, can't see how it relates to nuclear deterrence. The point is people who think Britain is so great because of the imperialist past and support willy waving are exactly those who voted for Brexit, are anti-immigration and support cuts. That includes the traditional labour voters we both admit exist - ever think the reason the reason why those "values" are brainwashed into people are so they tolerate having the piss taken out of them and vote against their interests? The dichotomy of trident versus decent public services is one of attitude - it's corporation tax cuts versus nurse's wages all over again - lost arguments based on twisted priorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I see the express is predicting a 60 seat majority. As well as an ARCTIC BLAST TO SWEEP THE COUNTRY LEAVING US COVERED IN ICE IN WHAT WILL BE THE COLDEST WINTER IN 6 THOUSAND YEARS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30740 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 What's the latest on Princess Diana? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Dead, arranged by Corbyn. Watch out Royals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3254 Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Renton said: Tbf as I've said many times, that's because you missed the cold war and don't seem to understand the mechanics of MAD. Nuclear weapons aren't supposed to be used, but they are an incredibly powerful deterrent. For the deterrent to work though, you have to be seen to be willing to use them, even if you're not. I'd say nuclear warfare is still the number one risk to civilisation. The box has been opened though so we need to manage it. It's a very important issue imo. Does that make me an idiot? No they aren't, who do nukes protect us from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 WTF?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Few more polls to come tonight. Could we see a Labour lead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 On the other hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26762 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Still likely to deliver a Tory majority though on balance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Seems as though it's all to do with the youth vote as has been said. We'll have to hope momentum can mobilise them... Edited June 3, 2017 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4003 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Rayvin said: Seems as though it's all to do with the youth vote as has been said. We'll have to hope momentum can mobilise them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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