2017 GE 1

[Renton 18038]

Am slightly bemused to be agreeing so much with Parky today.

[Rayvin 4964]

It's very simple. Are the Tories bigger cunts than Labour? If the answer is yes then vote for Labour. It mightn't be all you dreamed of but if they are in power then life will be better for a lot of people less fortunate than you.

 

That only works if you're prepared to embrace the ideology at the heart of this. If you are, then fine. But over the long haul, people's lives will continue to deteriorate as we move towards being a corporatocracy.

 

As I do not want to see the gradual erosion of people's lives, I find it hard to stomach the idea of voting for something that will ultimately produce this.

[ewerk 26793]

So what are you doing about it?

[Rayvin 4964]

The left of the center left of the Labour Party don't know how a mixed economy works and that is mainly because their ideals are unworkable within hostage Capitalism where the financial mural is international and the pressures on countries are global. Whilst Labour and finance are fluid and mobile across states and time zones you simply cannot build a truly left wing Govt. It is impossible. The art is in the compromise ie protecting as many as possible whilst dealing with the power of international finance and Globalisation realistically.

 

The left wing of the Labour party never discuss it honestly.

 

Oh ffs, it's not even as if Corbyn is an extreme left wing candidate. He has a load of policies that the vast majority of us agree on, which the vast majority of the electorate agree on, and is simply not polling well on a personal level. Seems to me like they're trying to discuss these policies as much as possible, and are being prevented at every turn.

 

I'm sure international finance will be glad of your backing though.

[Rayvin 4964]

So what are you doing about it?

 

I'm voting for people who I think can offer an alternative vision. If there are no such people to vote for, there is not much I can do. Short of going in politics myself that is, but if you're going to levy that particular strand of the argument at me, why haven't you run as a compassionate centrist in order to help all the same people you're suggesting I 'hate'.

[Renton 18038]

Out of interest Rayvin, which country comes closest to your political ideology and governance?

 

Germany? France? Scandinavian countries? Cuba?

[Park Life 71]

Oh ffs, it's not even as if Corbyn is an extreme left wing candidate. He has a load of policies that the vast majority of us agree on, which the vast majority of the electorate agree on, and is simply not polling well on a personal level. Seems to me like they're trying to discuss these policies as much as possible, and are being prevented at every turn.

 

I'm sure international finance will be glad of your backing though.

It's much more powerful than political parties. The nature of things here is that I see a much greater clear and present danger in the short term and you are worrying about the long term. You have to accept that for whatever reason or magic the voting classes in the UK aren't that bothered about Noe-Lieberalism and definitely not to the level that me or you are. But I see the immediate fight as more crucial ie keeping the Tories to reasonable levels within the power structure.

[Rayvin 4964]

Out of interest Rayvin, which country comes closest to your political ideology and governance?

 

Germany? France? Scandinavian countries? Cuba?

 

Cuba is a basket case.

 

The others are all part of the same systemic problem because Neoliberalism has enshrined itself in global institutions as a means of bypassing national controls and accountability. I'm not calling for a sudden and rapid change or revolution in terms of the systems we use, I'm calling for a gradual departure from a system that only appears to serve those at the top, while the rest of us run around for the crumbs. I do not believe any country does this at present.

 

If New Labour came out tomorrow, moved squarely to the centre, and said they were going to abandon Neoliberalism, I'd vote for them. They can't of course, but that's what I believe needs to happen.

 

I'm not a communist if that's where your mind is going.

[Park Life 71]

Norway with their sovereign wealth fund can be as left wing as they like and they are. They don't have to parse their policies against international finance and being competitive. They have oil and a small highly educated populace and probably some of the best and cheap/free healthcare on the planet. I would move there in a heartbeat if it wasn't so fucking cold.

[Rayvin 4964]

It's much more powerful than political parties. The nature of things here is that I see a much greater clear and present danger in the short term and you are worrying about the long term. You have to accept that for whatever reason or magic the voting classes in the UK aren't that bothered about Noe-Lieberalism and definitely not to the level that me or you are. But I see the immediate fight as more crucial ie keeping the Tories to reasonable levels within the power structure.

 

I'm glad you and I are back on the same page at least.

 

I'm inclined to think that extended exposure to the Tories will continue to ensure that people will look for alternatives. If we go back to Labour and the Tories recycling power between themselves we are simply not going to win this battle. If Labour get to power by appeasing the Neolibs, we can't rely on them to start making the necessary changes. That's the lesson we learned from Blair. The cold and unfeeling strategist in me thinks we need to hold out and make people desperate so that, eventually, they have to vote away from the Neolibs if they want anything other than the Tories. Apparently that will take another 5 years. We've got that coming either way though, so I'm tempted to say we may as well dig our heels in now.

 

Harsh as that sounds, the alternative is a slower descent into a deeper level of misery. At least as far as I see it. Could be wrong of course.

[Renton 18038]

Cuba is a basket case.

 

The others are all part of the same systemic problem because Neoliberalism has enshrined itself in global institutions as a means of bypassing national controls and accountability. I'm not calling for a sudden and rapid change or revolution in terms of the systems we use, I'm calling for a gradual departure from a system that only appears to serve those at the top, while the rest of us run around for the crumbs. I do not believe any country does this at present.

 

If New Labour came out tomorrow, moved squarely to the centre, and said they were going to abandon Neoliberalism, I'd vote for them. They can't of course, but that's what I believe needs to happen.

 

I'm not a communist if that's where your mind is going.

Cuba is actually very nice and has the best welfare and health metrics in the Caribbean. Fucked because of exogenous (global) realities though.

 

Interesting you can't name a single country that meets your approval.

 

Personally I reckon you're using this thread to set a new world record for typing neoliberalism.

[Rayvin 4964]

Cuba is actually very nice and has the best welfare and health metrics in the Caribbean. Fucked because of exogenous (global) realities though.

 

Interesting you can't name a single country that meets your approval.

 

Personally I reckon you're using this thread to set a new world record for typing neoliberalism.

 

Is it interesting? I'm not sure why that would be. My issue is with an ideology, not individual states.

 

But yes, I am overusing the word. I could bring back 'establishment' if you want.

[adios 717]

I'm mostly with @@Rayvin, maybe a little more pragmatic.  I do think Norway might be the best we can realistically expect.

 

We might have to flirt with the right until Renton's generation die off and it's going to be a total shitshow for a while, but I have some faith we'll come out the other side with a more leftist slant.

 

Honestly, if this is the best version of ourselves we deserve what's coming to us.

 

Neoliberalism.  Neoliberalism.  Neoliberalism.

Edited May 5, 2017 by adios

[Rayvin 4964]

 

Well put, especially the last bit.

[Dr Gloom 20136]

The left of the center left of the Labour Party don't know how a mixed economy works and that is mainly because their ideals are unworkable within hostage Capitalism where the financial mural is international and the pressures on countries are global. Whilst Labour and finance are fluid and mobile across states and time zones you simply cannot build a truly left wing Govt. It is impossible. The art is in the compromise ie protecting as many as possible whilst dealing with the power of international finance and Globalisation realistically.

 

The left wing of the Labour party never discuss it honestly.

 

yup

[Dr Gloom 20136]

That only works if you're prepared to embrace the ideology at the heart of this. If you are, then fine. But over the long haul, people's lives will continue to deteriorate as we move towards being a corporatocracy.

 

As I do not want to see the gradual erosion of people's lives, I find it hard to stomach the idea of voting for something that will ultimately produce this.

 

nah, this is bollocks. labour could be electable and be a force for good. they don't have to be war mongers like blair, nor do they have to be a a manhole spotting, lentil munching debating club. 

[Rayvin 4964]

nah, this is bollocks. labour could be electable and be a force for good. they don't have to be war mongers like blair, nor do they have to be a a manhole spotting, lentil munching debating club. 

 

I'm assuming here you're saying Labour could be electable and not proponents of the ideology that plagues our system.

 

I agree with you. Unfortunately, until someone better than Corbyn comes along, he's all we have. As I said, I'd vote for a centrist if it meant actually fixing the fucking problem. In fact I'd prefer to vote for a centrist fixer over a left wing one.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Rayvin

[adios 717]

nah, this is bollocks. labour could be electable and be a force for good. they don't have to be war mongers like blair, nor do they have to be a a manhole spotting, lentil munching debating club. 

I'm not totally disagreeing with Corbyn being pretty terrible at doing/knowing...anything.

 

On the other hand, it's only going to get worse for the poor, as Neoliberalism is the only currently acceptable flavour of the Left

 

What happens in 15 years when there are literally no jobs?  It could be positively Dickensian for the vast majority.

 

We need a massive change in ideology.  Redistribution of wealth, separation of corporation and state.

[Rayvin 4964]

 

I'm not totally disagreeing with Corbyn being pretty terrible at doing/knowing...anything.

 

On the other hand, it's only going to get worse for the poor, as Neoliberalism is the only currently acceptable flavour of the Left

 

What happens in 15 years when there are literally no jobs?  It could be positively Dickensian for the vast majority.

 

We need a massive change in ideology.  Redistribution of wealth, separation of corporation and state.

 

 

*rapturous applause* 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Rayvin

[Renton 18038]

I'm mostly with @@Rayvin, maybe a little more pragmatic. I do think Norway might be the best we can realistically expect.

 

We might have to flirt with the right until Renton's generation die off and it's going to be a total shitshow for a while, but I have some faith we'll come out the other side with a more leftist slant.

 

Honestly, if this is the best version of ourselves we deserve what's coming to us.

 

Neoliberalism. Neoliberalism. Neoliberalism.

I'm not that much older than you and if you are a Charnley lookalike I look younger than you too.

 

I don't see the world as such a terrible place as you or Rayvin, clearly, although undoubtedly things are getting worse as we lurch to the right because there is no coherent opposition. What I want is a liberal social democracy where there is a good standard of welfare for all but room for aspiration and betterment. A meritocracy with heavy taxation on high earners and very high taxation on inherited wealth. Plenty of European countries fit the brief and we were close a decade or so ago. In truth, life for the large majority had never been so good. How awful.

[Rayvin 4964]

I'm not that much older than you and if you are a Charnley lookalike I look younger than you too.

 

I don't see the world as such a terrible place as you or Rayvin, clearly, although undoubtedly things are getting worse as we lurch to the right because there is no coherent opposition. What I want is a liberal social democracy where there is a good standard of welfare for all but room for aspiration and betterment. A meritocracy with heavy taxation on high earners and very high taxation on inherited wealth. Plenty of European countries fit the brief and we were close a decade or so ago. In truth, life for the large majority had never been so good. How awful.

 

That time appears to have passed though. We now have a shrinking middle class, young people whose aspirations are being obliterated as soon as they set foot out of the door, a diminishing public sector, and rampant populism which has successfully co-opted the anger about this state of affairs and pointed it in the direction of something else.

 

Young people are where the problem really is. Maybe you're able to suck up all the shit that's going down because you're already 'established' and it isn't touching you, but for people starting out at the bottom, with tuition fees now skyrocketing, social mobility at an all time low, and the requirement to live with your parents until you're into your 30s(!) I don't see how you can consider that things are looking ok.

 

Maybe for you they are.

[adios 717]

I'm not that much older than you and if you are a Charnley lookalike I look younger than you too.

 

I don't see the world as such a terrible place as you or Rayvin, clearly, although undoubtedly things are getting worse as we lurch to the right because there is no coherent opposition. What I want is a liberal social democracy where there is a good standard of welfare for all but room for aspiration and betterment. A meritocracy with heavy taxation on high earners and very high taxation on inherited wealth. Plenty of European countries fit the brief and we were close a decade or so ago. In truth, life for the large majority had never been so good. How awful.

I agree with most of what you've said there (or at least that was where I was before I saw with equal measures of excitement and horror the rate at which AI/AGI is progressing).

 

I think we just disagree with how we're going to have to get there.

 

Don't really look like Charnley though, I'm hoping for Pruitt Taylor Vince for my inevitable Hollywood biopic.

[Ayatollah Hermione 12894]

The amount of self-serving and deluded wankers in politics in the UK must be at the highest ebb since the second world war. The insular and partisan nature of the various sides is an embarrassment with regard to wider issues and the sheer ignorance of our politicians with regard to matters of our time is mind blowing. Politics in the UK is where losers with no drive or imagination end up. There is a leadership vacuum on all sides and a reluctance to tell the truth and tackle issues head on.

It's nothing more than a circle jerk paid for by the public who themselves are in realm of ignorance unsurpassed in modern history. The 5th largest economy in the world where 2m people are using food banks. Absolute joke.

 

This is much better than your 8 pints deep, InfoWars subscription gimmick

[NJS 4002]

I'm not totally disagreeing with Corbyn being pretty terrible at doing/knowing...anything.

On the other hand, it's only going to get worse for the poor, as Neoliberalism is the only currently acceptable flavour of the Left

What happens in 15 years when there are literally no jobs? It could be positively Dickensian for the vast majority.

We need a massive change in ideology. Redistribution of wealth, separation of corporation and state.

Read Market Forces by Richard Morgan or similar stories - only those with wealth and/or a good job will be allowed to be citizens and will live in gated communities with secure transport to and from work. Everyone else will live a feral existence in the remaining wastelands.

[Happy Face 29]

I'm not that much older than you and if you are a Charnley lookalike I look younger than you too.

 

I don't see the world as such a terrible place as you or Rayvin, clearly, although undoubtedly things are getting worse as we lurch to the right because there is no coherent opposition. What I want is a liberal social democracy where there is a good standard of welfare for all but room for aspiration and betterment. A meritocracy with heavy taxation on high earners and very high taxation on inherited wealth. Plenty of European countries fit the brief and we were close a decade or so ago. In truth, life for the large majority had never been so good. How awful.

 

And we only had to turn a blind eye (encourage?) city malfeasance that brought the globe to financial ruin and made the lives of millions immeasurably more difficult.... and then punish the victims rather than the perpetrators... to be allowed to implement that long hot summer.