Gemmill 52696 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 Has any other club ever had a PGMOL apology statement come out within hours of full time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 23796 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 07:13, Gemmill said: Has any other club ever had a PGMOL apology statement come out within hours of full time? Expand No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 8040 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 06:51, Kid Dynamite said: That's tight, but Isak's shoulder is marginally ahead of the defenders foot. We get enough shit decisions without having to claim conspiracies about dubious ones Expand There is no way you can be certain from that angle. The lines are bollocks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holden McGroin 8040 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 07:07, Dr Gloom said: that decision is dodgy AF man. I thought it at the time and I still do. His feet are behind the Liverpool defender’s Expand It’s not about feet though. It’s any part of the body that can score. I think the rule should be feet though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 19732 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 07:13, Gemmill said: Has any other club ever had a PGMOL apology statement come out within hours of full time? Expand I think it was minutes rather than hours… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wykikitoon 23796 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 08:15, Holden McGroin said: It’s not about feet though. It’s any part of the body that can score. I think the rule should be feet though. Expand There was a time when it was 'clear daylight' wasn't there? Whats it like in Europe? Is it as bad as what we have? Something needs to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7942 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 07:07, Dr Gloom said: that decision is dodgy AF man. I thought it at the time and I still do. His feet are behind the Liverpool defender’s Expand Howay man Why do you think sprinters lean forward at the finish line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 19732 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 (edited) On 01/10/2023 at 08:33, wykikitoon said: There was a time when it was 'clear daylight' wasn't there? Whats it like in Europe? Is it as bad as what we have? Something needs to be done. Expand Daylight was a guideline in the mid 90s, not a law. The automated systems used in the men’s & womens WC recently were rejected by the clubs that form the premier league in favour of keeping the human element in the judgement of decisions. Wonder why? Edited October 1, 2023 by PaddockLad 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 37847 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 (edited) On 01/10/2023 at 08:34, Kid Dynamite said: Howay man Why do you think sprinters lean forward at the finish line. Expand Because your torso crossing the line determines that you’ve finished the race. Not really relevant in this sense as this type of offside is essentially the start of a foot race as opposed to the end. However I can see the logic of the law. Because if it was a ball crossed into the box and the defender and attacker weren’t running then you could theoretically gain an ‘unfair’ advantage by having a part of your body in front of the defender when the ball was played. Even if the attacker’s feet weren’t ahead of the defender’s. I think the main point with the Isak one though is that it was offside and, within the current rules, that decision was right. The problem isn’t so much the law, it’s the (in)consistent application of it. As PL mentions, there’s technology available that would appear to remove the potential for human error. If that’s the case then why isn’t it being used? Because offside (similar to whether or not the ball has crossed the line) is not something that shouldn’t be open to interpretation. The worrying thing is VAR is no longer new, yet the issues around it seem no closer to being resolved. That was a fucking incredibly bad decision yesterday, for example. Hilarious too of course Edited October 1, 2023 by Alex 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 24308 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 08:34, Kid Dynamite said: Howay man Why do you think sprinters lean forward at the finish line. Expand it isn’t clear to me from those lines that any part of Isak’s body is ahead of the defender’s foot. I don’t see that he’s gained any advantage from those pictures. They used to talk about the benefit of the doubt going to the attackers. The Isak one is an example of VAR intervening when it isn’t a clear and obvious error. I was raging about it at the time and still think it was a shite use of the technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 24526 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 08:58, Alex said: Because your torso crossing the line determines that you’ve finished the race. Not really relevant in this sense as this type of offside is essentially the start of a foot race as opposed to the end. However I can see the logic of the law because if it was a ball crossed into the box and the defender and attacker weren’t running then you could theoretically gain an ‘unfair’ advantage by having a part of you body in front of the defender when the ball the played. Even if the attacker’s feet weren’t ahead of the defender’s. I think the main point with the Isak one is though that, it was offside and, within the current rules that decision was right. The problem isn’t so much the law, it the (in)consistent application of it. As PL mentions, there’s technology available that would appear to remove the potential for human error. If that’s the case then why isn’t it being used. Because offside (like whether or not the ball has crossed the line) is not something that shooed be open to interpretation. The worrying thing is VAR is no longer nee yet the issues around it seem no closer to being resolved. That was a fucking incredibly bad decision yesterday, for example. Hilarious too of course Expand Correct. Offside is an objective metric which should be decided by AI very quickly, maybe instantly. It's also by far the most frequent issue of VAR halts and controversies. Personally, I'd like to see a " clear daylight" implementation to benefit the attacking team. More goals, more entertainment. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 37847 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 (edited) On 01/10/2023 at 09:01, Dr Gloom said: it isn’t clear to me from those lines that any part of Isak’s body is ahead of the defender’s foot. I don’t see that he’s gained any advantage from those pictures. They used to talk about the benefit of the doubt going to the attackers. The Isak one is an example of VAR intervening when it isn’t a clear and obvious error. I was raging about it at the time and still think it was a shite use of the technology. Expand That’s a fair point too, because the issue of someone deciding where to put the lines based on their interpretation of exactly when the ball was played is too subjective. Iirc though ‘clear and obvious error’ is not applicable for offsides as they’re either onside or off. Although that goes back to the potential for human error with the placement of the lines Edited October 1, 2023 by Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 24308 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 09:05, Renton said: Correct. Offside is an objective metric which should be decided by AI very quickly, maybe instantly. It's also by far the most frequent issue of VAR halts and controversies. Personally, I'd like to see a " clear daylight" implementation to benefit the attacking team. More goals, more entertainment. Expand Agree. The VAR gimps can do one - let the robots decide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4718 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 The telltale for me on the Isak one was that Sky showed it once, said "that was tight" and never showed it again. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 24308 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 09:11, Alex said: That’s a fair point too, because the issue of someone deciding where to put the lines based on their interpretation of exactly when the ball was played is too subjective. Iirc though ‘clear and obvious error’ is applicable for offsides as they’re either onside or off. Although that goes back to the potential for human error with the placement of the lines Expand I still think it’s ridiculous that a player’s fingernails or his hipster beard can be playing someone onside but I’d rather the robots decided than some full kit wanker in the VAR booth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4718 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 There's also the ref review angle choice - the idiots last year against Palace showed the one angle out of 10 that didn't show Willock was clearly pushed. On that red last night which I still think was a red btw they chose the one where it most looked like a leg breaker without the second before showing his ffoot possibly sliding off the ball. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 37847 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 09:19, NJS said: There's also the ref review angle choice - the idiots last year against Palace showed the one angle out of 10 that didn't show Willock was clearly pushed. On that red last night which I still think was a red btw they chose the one where it most looked like a leg breaker without the second before showing his ffoot possibly sliding off the ball. Expand Absolutely. I’ve said before the VAR officials should own / make those decisions. Not have the ridiculous spectacle of a ref looking at a monitor, under immense pressure, in front of a baying crowd without even the full picture of how the events unfolded. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7942 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 08:58, Alex said: Because your torso crossing the line determines that you’ve finished the race. Not really relevant in this sense as this type of offside is essentially the start of a foot race as opposed to the end. However I can see the logic of the law. Because if it was a ball crossed into the box and the defender and attacker weren’t running then you could theoretically gain an ‘unfair’ advantage by having a part of your body in front of the defender when the ball was played. Even if the attacker’s feet weren’t ahead of the defender’s. I think the main point with the Isak one though is that it was offside and, within the current rules, that decision was right. The problem isn’t so much the law, it’s the (in)consistent application of it. As PL mentions, there’s technology available that would appear to remove the potential for human error. If that’s the case then why isn’t it being used? Because offside (similar to whether or not the ball has crossed the line) is not something that shouldn’t be open to interpretation. The worrying thing is VAR is no longer new, yet the issues around it seem no closer to being resolved. That was a fucking incredibly bad decision yesterday, for example. Hilarious too of course Expand My post was in reference to the assertion that Isak couldn't have been offside as his feet were behind the defenders. Which is nonsense under the current law. Whether you agree with the law or not, Isak's head and body are clearly leaning forward and are playing him offside. People keep using that photo as evidence of a conspiracy where Liverpool get decisions and we don't and it just makes us look small time imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 37847 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 (edited) On 01/10/2023 at 10:29, Kid Dynamite said: My post was in reference to the assertion that Isak couldn't have been offside as his feet were behind the defenders. Which is nonsense under the current law. Whether you agree with the law or not, Isak's head and body are clearly leaning forward and are playing him offside. People keep using that photo as evidence of a conspiracy where Liverpool get decisions and we don't and it just makes us look small time imo. Expand Yeah, I get all that and I don’t disagree. I mentioned about why athletes dip because I don’t think Isak gains an unfair advantage in this instance. I know that’s not relevant to the law as it stands. But the feet position would perhaps be better. Like if a defender is caught on his heels and the attacker has some of his body ahead of the defender. This is likely because the attacker’s momentum means that would be his natural body position. In an instance like that it seems to favour a defender who has switched off. For decades now the law has been about giving the attacker the benefit of the doubt and it now runs counter to that imo. Like I said though the main problem is obvious human error coming into an area (VAR) that was meant to remove that. Rather than the law itself. Edited October 1, 2023 by Alex 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 38044 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 08:58, Alex said: Because your torso crossing the line determines that you’ve finished the race. Not really relevant in this sense as this type of offside is essentially the start of a foot race as opposed to the end. However I can see the logic of the law. Because if it was a ball crossed into the box and the defender and attacker weren’t running then you could theoretically gain an ‘unfair’ advantage by having a part of your body in front of the defender when the ball was played. Even if the attacker’s feet weren’t ahead of the defender’s. I think the main point with the Isak one though is that it was offside and, within the current rules, that decision was right. The problem isn’t so much the law, it’s the (in)consistent application of it. As PL mentions, there’s technology available that would appear to remove the potential for human error. If that’s the case then why isn’t it being used? Because offside (similar to whether or not the ball has crossed the line) is not something that shouldn’t be open to interpretation. The worrying thing is VAR is no longer new, yet the issues around it seem no closer to being resolved. That was a fucking incredibly bad decision yesterday, for example. Hilarious too of course Expand I saw a comment from a supporter that said Liverpool have just experienced what it's like to play against Liverpool and I just thought..... 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7942 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 (edited) On 01/10/2023 at 10:40, Alex said: Yeah, I get all that and I don’t disagree. I mentioned about why athletes dip because I don’t think Isak gains an unfair advantage in this instance. I know that’s not relevant to the law as it stands. But the feet position would perhaps be better. Like if a defender is caught on his heels and the attacker has some of his body ahead of the defender. This is likely because the attacker’s momentum means that would be his natural body position. In an instance like that it seems to favour a defender who has switched off. For decades now the law has been about giving the attacker the benefit of the doubt and it now runs counter to that imo. Like I said though the main problem is obvious human error coming into an area (VAR) that was meant to remove that. Rather than the law itself. Expand Using feet might be easier. But you will also get cases where a player is mid stride, their front foot is in the air and their back foot is 3feet behind them/the defender. Which leads you back to the same situation of having to draw imaginary lines for body parts not touching the ground Edited October 1, 2023 by Kid Dynamite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 37847 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 10:51, Kid Dynamite said: Using feet might be easier. But you will also get cases where a player is mid stride, their front foot is in the air and their back foot is 3feet behind them/the defender. Which leads you back to the same situation of having to draw imaginary lines for body parts not touching the ground Expand Yeah. Agree with that too so it’s not perfect. But whatever the law is using AI (with human observation as a backup) seems like the only decent option. Wyki (I think) mentioned the lack of transparency too. When you look at sports like cricket and rugby and how the process of the video referees isn’t hidden it makes you wonder what they’re hiding. Not going down the conspiracy route, I suspect it’s chaotic incompetence 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 24308 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 10:29, Kid Dynamite said: My post was in reference to the assertion that Isak couldn't have been offside as his feet were behind the defenders. Which is nonsense under the current law. Whether you agree with the law or not, Isak's head and body are clearly leaning forward and are playing him offside. People keep using that photo as evidence of a conspiracy where Liverpool get decisions and we don't and it just makes us look small time imo. Expand One thing it ain’t is clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 38044 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 Go to 2.50 onwards for the true Goodison experience..... I actually feel a bit sorry for the lad at the end, reminds me a bit of NUFC under Bruce. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobElliott 2019 Posted October 1, 2023 Share Posted October 1, 2023 On 01/10/2023 at 10:51, Kid Dynamite said: Using feet might be easier. But you will also get cases where a player is mid stride, their front foot is in the air and their back foot is 3feet behind them/the defender. Which leads you back to the same situation of having to draw imaginary lines for body parts not touching the ground Expand The ones down the road in Mordor will not be happy with this approach, with them having oversized webbed feet and all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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