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Middle East Crisis


Rayvin
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8 hours ago, Meenzer said:

I suppose if you're trying to say "we disapprove of genocide a bit but not a lot" then it's the right approach.


Bollocks, it’s about proportionality. Believe it or not but female basketball in Ireland isn’t a major sport. If they refuse to play then they’re thrown out of the tournament and heavily fined, basically fucking over the entire organisation for years. It’s like telling Colin Kaepernick ‘oh you’re against racism but not that much’ because he continued to play while taking the knee.

 

Would it have been better to keep their heads below the parapet and make no gesture at all?

Edited by ewerk
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I see now that some of the players did refuse to take part altogether, so fair play to them.

 

I take the point about funding. I presume that's also why the Irish basketball federation said it couldn't guarantee the Israeli players' safety if the match venue had been switched to Dublin as per one request (because it wouldn't have been in a position to handle the potential protests). It's a shame that some sports have the means to deal with that kind of thing and others don't, so you end up with situations like this that satisfy nobody.

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  • 2 months later...

It was clear at the start of this thing, when Hamas invaded Israel to slaughter and rape innocent people, that they were backed by Iran, knowing how brutal the Israeli response would be.

 

Iran’s goal was to end the warming relations between Israel and Saudi and further destabilise the region. Until now it’s been through proxies, today they have launched missiles at Israel.  I don’t know what happens next but nothing good comes from this. 

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29 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

It was clear at the start of this thing, when Hamas invaded Israel to slaughter and rape innocent people, that they were backed by Iran, knowing how brutal the Israeli response would be.

 

Iran’s goal was to end the warming relations between Israel and Saudi and further destabilise the region. Until now it’s been through proxies, today they have launched missiles at Israel.  I don’t know what happens next but nothing good comes from this. 

 

I underestimated how brutal and indiscriminate Israel's response would be. The survivors of the holocaust, enacting a policy of ethnic cleansing at best, genocide at worst. Over 30,000 dead, mainly women and children. From what I understand, largely supported by the populace of Israel. No, nothing good can come from this. 

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11 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I underestimated how brutal and indiscriminate Israel's response would be. The survivors of the holocaust, enacting a policy of ethnic cleansing at best, genocide at worst. Over 30,000 dead, mainly women and children. From what I understand, largely supported by the populace of Israel. No, nothing good can come from this. 


I didn’t because I knew how awful the Israeli PM is - he won’t stop until Hamas has been removed and the hostages have been released and he doesn’t care how many innocent Palestinians are murdered in the process.
 

I don’t know what the latest polling suggests but everyone I know in Israel wants Netanyahu out. 
 

Unfortunately for the people of Gaza, Hamas is in charge and Israel has the worst possible leader for this moment because he won’t stop until the Americans tell him to. 
 

Iran have raised the stakes with this move though. What has until now been a proxy war could escalate to a much more worrying conflict with Iran/Russia on one side and Israel/West on the other 

Edited by Dr Gloom
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13 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:


I didn’t because I knew how awful the Israeli PM is - he won’t stop until Hamas has been removed and the hostages have been released and he doesn’t care how many innocent Palestinians are murdered in the process.
 

I don’t know what the latest polling suggests but everyone I know in Israel wants Netanyahu out. 
 

Unfortunately for the people of Gaza, Hamas is in charge and Israel has the worst possible leader for this moment because he won’t stop until the Americans tell him to. 
 

Iran have raised the stakes with this move though. What has until now been a proxy war could escalate to a much more worrying conflict with Iran/Russia on one side and Israel/West on the other 

 

Netanyahu may be unpopular but support for the war is strong. I've watched some horrendous vox pops and seen opinion polls. And here you say Iran have escalated this from a proxy war without mentioning that Israel committed a fatal strike on a diplomatic target 2 weeks ago. I think they did this intentionally to elicit this response from Iran. They are pulling the strings here. 

Alos, wiping out Hamas and rescuing the hostages are mutually exclusive goals. 

Edited by Renton
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6 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Netanyahu may be unpopular but support for the war is strong. I've watched some horrendous vox pops and seen opinion polls. And here you say Iran have escalated this from a proxy war without mentioning that Israel committed a fatal strike on a diplomatic target 2 weeks ago. I think they did this intentionally to elicit this response from Iran. They are pulling the strings here. 

Alos, wiping out Hamas and rescuing the hostages are mutually exclusive goals. 


I’m not defending Israel here. Netanyahu knows what he’s doing and wants this as much as Iran does - war is all Netanyahu has left because support for him has massively diminished and he’s clinging to power thanks to the conflict.
 

You’re right that Israelis support the war. The rabid nationalists who don’t care about the slaughter of innocent Palestinians you mention don’t speak for everyone of course but there is wide support for the removal of Hamas and return of the hostages, yes. 


This is where the threat of escalation got real. Not exactly what the world needs alongside the Ukraine conflict.  

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Iran had to be seen to respond to the Isreali attack otherwise they would have seen to be incredibly weak

The response they had, using drones and missiles that take hours to hit their targets and are relatively easily to knock out is hopefully more of a face saving response for a domestic audience than a genuine step towards all out war. 

It remains to be seen what Bibi's response is

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18 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Iran had to be seen to respond to the Isreali attack otherwise they would have seen to be incredibly weak

The response they had, using drones and missiles that take hours to hit their targets and are relatively easily to knock out is hopefully more of a face saving response for a domestic audience than a genuine step towards all out war. 

It remains to be seen what Bibi's response is

Shouldn't have sold all their "good" drones to Putin. 

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On 16/11/2023 at 22:55, Rayvin said:

 

That is the only logical view if he at some point decides to back a ceasefire. That the only thing stopping him from doing it now is that not enough innocents have been killed to satisfy Israel.

 

He gets some respect from me if he sticks to his guns and pushes Israel to decimate all of Gaza in an attempt to destroy Hamas because at least that will mean it is genuinely the only option he thinks there is. If at some point he flips around and says we need a ceasefire cos 20k, 30k, 50k are dead, then no, he's getting nothing from me for that. All that tells me is that he knew ceasefire is what this would come to, and he was waiting for the death toll to hit a predefined number/global outrage to become unsustainable. Instead of, y'know, doing the thing he knew he should have done from the word go.

 

So right now I'm really hoping Israel are successfully going to permanently eradicate Hamas for the rest of time, because that's the hill Biden has chosen to die on.

 

On 16/11/2023 at 23:30, Rayvin said:

 

I am saying that there are two options out of this. One is a ceasefire. The other is the total annihilation of Hamas. Further to that, I am saying that at this point, with 10k dead, Biden better fucking believe that the only way out of this is the annihilation of Hamas, because if he turns around later at 20 or 30k dead and calls for a ceasefire, all I'm going to think is that for BIDEN PERSONALLY the key consideration in whether or not a ceasefire was the right course of action was how many innocent lives had been lost.

 

None of this has anything to do with Israel's view, which I strongly suspect is that the total annihilation of Hamas is achievable. Israel are not going to suddenly come up with a ceasefire as a policy suggestion on this though, so they will remain consistent to their view.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-us-gaza-joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-phone-call Biden called for a ceasefire at 30k it turns out.

 

Israel wiping out Hamas was never remotely realistic unless they were going to commit a full on genocide through Gaza, so I want to just flag this post back up. The whole world turning around now and saying a ceasefire has to be reached is just stomach turning. The US knew, we knew, everyone fucking knew that Israel weren't going to fucking succeed. Why did we have to let them kill 30k+ people? Because apparently we needed to let Israel kill a sufficient number of innocents so as to be somewhat 'appeased'. The world let Israel collect a blood debt on Palestinian lives.

 

It is beyond sickening how the world has handled this.

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When the ICJ case gave their verdict, they accused the UNWRA of being Hamas to deflect the story by using torture and lies. 

 

Now the cowards in the west have "noticed" the extent of their bloodlust that's been there in their words and deeds since the outset, they've provoked Iran to deflect again and have the nerve to cite international law and go crawling to the UN who they literally accused of being Hamas a couple of months ago. 

 

It's sad there are horrible people willing to react when poked but it should be clear who the worst of the lot are. 

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