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Howe out !!!

Botman was "icing a problem at half time" which is why he came off, so hopefully he's OK for this one. That's from Howe in the post match press conference.

It was absolutely horrific, I've seen the clip of John Helm commentating on it a few times and it never gets easier to view. It definitely was overshadowed by what happened at Heysel later that month and then Hillsborough 4 years later. What gets overlooked IMO is the death of Ian Hambridge at St Andrews on the same day. Was at his first match if I remember right.

Sadly I think Arsenal will do us in this one and it'll be our last 'off day' of the season. 2-0 to them

yeah. you can argue over whether there was intent but you can't argue that botman took an elbow to the face and that is an automatic red. it also looks like he sized it up before the contact was made, which didn't help his cause.

Intent is irrelevant tbh, serious foul play occurred.

It's not like it even hurt Chelsea, they were better without him. In the end he's a bellend, playing for a bellend club, whose suspension will only sadden bellends. That's all that really matters.

True but I looked at him, jabbed me arm/elbow into his mush but I didn't mean it is a less likely explanation than "I did him". If you're not looking, fine.

I ran out of prozac last week and there’s a shortage apparently.

Telling it like it is.

Spurs need their "Big 6" membership revoking, and Man Utd won't be far behind them. Ours and Villas form isn't a flash in the pan, despite PSR doing its best to cripple both teams.

I think anyone claiming there is/isn’t intent are thick cunts who should be gelded, blinded and tongue ripped out. It is impossible to prove intent unless someone confesses to it. Nobody knows what someone is thinking when they do something.

Well, no. Because you can not intend to make contact with their head.

When you look at a player and then still clatter them in the head the interpretation can only be you meant it.

Russell Martin was on MOTD and he reckons it was def a red but that, when Jackson glances at Botman he's standing up straight, and in the time that he looks away and leads with his arm, Botman dips down. He was basically arguing that it was a red but he didn't think there was an intent to get Botman in the face. Maybe he's right I dunno.

Sorry to hear about the cat mate. Heartbreaking when pets are involved. edit: Heartbreaking when humans are involved too (for clarity).

Stephen Warnock: "The centre-back does not jump. If the defender jumps, Jackson's arm goes into his chest. "I just think it is mistimed from Jackson and it's very unfortunate." I'm only getting this form the Sky Sports website so there may be context missing and he may still have said the red was correct, but this is one of the most ridiculous takes on a foul I've ever heard.

Aye I'm really grateful to whoever it was cos they def didn't have to do that. I did it once when I found one in the road and cars were driving around it. The people only lived 2 minutes away, so I rang the number on the tag, moved the cat out or the road, and waited with it til they got there. Pretty convinced they thought I'd ran their cat over. The lass was distraught though, it was horrible.

Dreadful. Sorry Gemmill. It was good someone picked her up rather than you never knowing what happened to her. Our cat just disappeared one day.

Cheers lads, genuinely appreciate the kind words.

I mean tbh I'm not at all convinced Labour is ready to be having this conversation though. It feels to me, and has felt to me since Miliband, that Labour needs some sort of actual vision to be taking the country toward. I get that pragmatism is important but I don't think it can exist just on its own. We need to be going somewhere, and with Labour it's really poorly defined. It's all reactive stuff. Whether it's Starmer, Rayner, whoever... I just don't see who in the party has the first fucking idea where to take the country. There is leadership but no vision.

Possible anyway. I do take your point. Picking him and Corbyn doesn’t say a lot about the party in terms of being able to govern and take enough people along with you. With Corbyn it was the naivety from a media and foreign affairs pov. With Starmer it’s the complete lack of personality and any sense of standing for, well, anything

I can't believe Raynor or Phillipson etc share the beliefs of what is happening right now.

I think it's telling how little we're hearing from Rayner. I doubt this is how she saw things going.