Rayvin

My solution would be for the party to stand front and centre and tell people truthfully why the country is in the shambles it is, and what we were going to do about it irrespective of any sacred cows. We are a nation of fucking adults whose political class treat them like children. If people are wrong about something, they need to grow the fuck up and accept it. I said quite a few times that I was wrong to back Corbyn fwiw, I think Andy Burnham or Yvette Cooper would have been the better options for such a period of turmoil. At least I'm man enough to acknowledge that. I can't be doing with this babying of people who voted for Brexit, all this protecting them from the reality of their choice man, it's one of the most pathetic things I've seen in politics, perhaps more pathetic even than Brexit itself. I would snap your hand off for a Blair or an Obama at this juncture but we've got nothing. No leadership, no strategy, just wait and see and a dollop of opportunism. We need to do better than this, surely. The long term solution is the nation getting fucking real with itself, but it needs to be led towards that. A one off Labour victory against the worst Prime Minister the country has ever seen which will allow a holding pattern at best, and time enough for the Tories to sort themselves out again while Labour still doesn't come to terms with the fundamental problems it has, is not a solution. If Labour don't win next time out, maybe we will have to concede collectively that they aren't electable in any iteration of their current form, and that we need to actually come up with a real solution. If they do win then I'll field all the "I told you so"s on offer, but even should that happen I don't think it'll be the kind of victory, or the kind of government, that this country needs. Not based on current evidence.

Yougov has the Tories at 39% holding firm, Labour at 32% (-3) and the LDs (+3%) and Greens (+2%) at 10 and 9 respectively. Was 4 days ago so pre this weeks fiasco but that to me suggests that Labour are continuing to lose voters on the left while failing to win them on the right. We really are entirely dependent on the government falling apart to win this, aren't we?

I read his paraphrased on in the guardian which claimed to be written by him. I even linked it in here. It said nothing inspiring.

I mean, first off I can recall a time not that far back when you and I were of a similar mind on Starmer so im not sure what changed for you here but I haven't had the same transformative experience. Secondly, Starmer is literally continuing Corbyn's Brexit stance. And while it may be lost in the annals of time now, I rejected Corbyn over the same damn thing I'm rejecting Starmer over. But my views aside, the fact remains the red wall voters are a ball and chain for this party irrespective of who is leading it. That old alliance is dead. The only viable long term solution is to cut the cord, form electoral pacts, and try to win power using the 54ish% of people in this country who vote for left leaning parties - and then instigate PR. I could even maybe get away with holding my nose and voting for Brexitlite Labour if PR was on the table, just so that I'd never have to indulge this lunacy again, but it's clearly not on the table.

The party was ruined by its stance over austerity, without which Corbyn wouldn't even have been a thing. It was craven and fearful then and it's craven and fearful now. I'm not asking for any particular wing of the party to be at the helm, I'm asking for anyone with a semblance of a vision for a better future for people to rally around. I know you don't believe in vision, you seem to think we can get by with just not being as shit as the other guy, but I'm struggling to see it myself. I'm sure as fuck not motivated to vote for it.

And I would be fascinated to understand why it is that the unions have shot down PR. That would have been one very thin silver lining from this conference but no, we are denied even that.

He had a stridently pro-EU view going into the leadership election which was binned almost as soon as he took power, ultimately culminating in signing off on the one of the worst possible deals we could have managed. Whether you agree with his stance on that or not, this is a pledge he effectively lied about to win over people like me, demonstrating how prepared he is to take us for granted. As for everything else Labour, the left will very much consider that what they are doing within Labour now is what the centrists did under Corbyn. There were open letters to the press, leadership challenges, active undermining of strategy. I mean come on man, this war hasn't been waged by one side. And what I will say personally is that it was pathetic and risible when the centre did it, and its no better with the left doing it. Yeah the left lost the last two times, but then the centre lost the two times before that. Maybe no one wants any iteration of Labour. We seem to be pinning all of our hopes on Johnson failing so spectacularly that Labour sneak in, having more or less admitted to ourselves that the party has no vision, strategy or competence to do what needs to be done to win on its own terms, whether from the left or centre. Were we up against even a middling Tory PM, Starmer would lose convincingly. He'll probably lose convincingly even to Johnson, but you do have to allow for the possibility that things might get so bad that the electorate will try anything. The issue with Labour isn't the membership, the left, the centre, any of it. The issue with Labour is that its a busted flush with no vision or ideas to sell to people, that it is entirely reactive in policy ideas, and that it is no longer prepared to stand up for what it believes in, so desperate it is to court the votes of the damned. It will lose because it stands for fuck all. Been a while since I checked the polls I guess, are the Lib Dems and Greens still benefiting from Starmer's "brilliance" or has he stemmed the bleeding now?

The daily mail comment section has the answer though - force those people on benefits to do these jobs.

You're completely right and that weighs heavily on me whenever I get worked up about this.

I'll remain open minded, I just hate watching this pandering.

I liked Starmer. I voted for him at the leadership election chiefly because of his pro EU views. And I understand why he feels he needs to park the Brexit question - I think he's wrong, but I understand how he's gotten to where he has. He's not taking me with him on that particular trip though. We'll see in the next GE I suppose.

Maybe so, but I'm not ready to let go of my anger on this yet - and probably won't until the reality of Brexit is properly reckoned with at a national level. And I hope you're right about the truth. It would change the picture for me if it turned out to be the case.

The only way it's getting elected is through PR. I've been reflecting on my views on this for the past half an hour and I suppose the truth to my position on this is worth mentioning. I'm not a left wing idealogue, I'm not chasing a particular vision of left wing government. What I am, is furious. I've been furious for years now. I am furious that we have Brexit, I'm furious that older voters who have had the easiest political lifespans in history consistently fuck over people in my generation and younger. I'm furious that we had 10 years of austerity because New Labour couldn't build a simple fucking narrative to challenge it. But more than anything at this point, I am incandescent that I am now meant to sit down and break bread with the fuckers who voted for all of this, that I'm meant to take one for the team and support weak and pathetic pandering to these people - people who don't analyse policy before voting, who don't inform themselves, and who are consistently voting against their own best interests due to some nebulous bullshit about patriotism. I'm meant to turn the other cheek on Brexit ffs, the greatest act of national self harm that this country has possibly ever seen - an act carried out by traitors and liars with the consent of the blind. There is no possible way I can stomach that, it's just not going to happen - and I am appalled that the fucking Labour party has thrown in to try and win over these people not by demonstrating the error of their ways, but by treating them as fucking children and lying to them about Brexit and "how they made the right choice but the Tories are just doing it wrong". And it expects me, you, all of us to be complicit in this. To all pretend that this is ok and to hide our real feelings and agendas until we get elected, at which point we do what? Either we do fuck all because we need these people to vote for us next time, or we introduce reform by stealth. The problem with the latter is, the people we need to hoodwink to get into power to do this, already know that this is our plan. They don't trust us to implement their fucked up right wing bullshit. And why the fuck would they? They're not children and we need to stop treating them like children. People in this country need to be battered over the head with the truth until it finally sinks the fuck in - and if it never does, then we didn't deserve a functional country in the first place. So if I'm an ideologue for any particular view, it's that. Not the left, not socialism, not utopias - just the fucking truth.

Johnson seems to be capturing a lot of that pragmatic centreground though. Moreover, he's doing it with a far more convincing dash of 'Patriotic fervour' than Starmer is ever going to be able to manage. I mean ffs, Starmer is now in a position where he's arguing against a Tory government which is raising taxes to better pay for health care. I think we do need radical change since we're running out of time to fix this both as a country regarding our society, and as a species regarding climate change. Another 10 years and there'll be no going back to anything like what we had under Blair, even with another Labour government. Too much water will have gone under the bridge, and our far lowered expectations will accept any meagre gesture our ruling class deign to give us. You're talking about things being a bit less shit. They were a bit less shit under Cameron, are you saying you'd be happy with going back to that? Is that now what a Labour government should be aiming at? To get back to where New Labour were from here requires radical change. Then we can talk about whether or not there's merit in heading further left. I'm not fussed at that stage really but we can't keep pussy footing around the serious issues.

The only thing he could put forward that I would throw him my vote over at this point is PR. If he promises a referendum on that or however he wants to go about it, he'll get my vote with or without any clear vision or plan. He's not going to do it though because the arrogance within the Labour party is breathtaking. As you say, they're powerless in opposition. You'd think they would be able to see that this was the only way forward, and yet here we are.

Not sure I'd quite describe my own views like that but it's basically where I am. He's betrayed my vote for him and looks useless - wouldn't say unpalatable per se but he's taking my vote for granted and so he's not getting it. If that's sixth form ideology then the world can get fucked tbh. I suppose time will tell if that view holds up all the way to the voting booth but if there was an election tomorrow I'd not be voting Labour. Don't worry though, all the soft right Tories are going to be voting for him in spades, so my vote doesn't matter. Apparently. He's losing those people through strategic choice on his own part, take it up with him. He has had absolutely no message for young, remain oriented progressive people. Frankly he's had no message for anyone as far as I can see, even the gammons he seems to want to get into bed with.

I feel like I've been reading this on here for the last 10 years. They're never fucked.

I suspect it's really the left versus the centre (broadly) - doomed to do this for years on end without realising that they're not going to get anywhere without each other. And the Lib Dems. And the SNP. And the Greens. Labour as a viable party for winning power in its own right is done, it's been too rife with turmoil for the better part of a decade now and that has splintered its support. Starmer is not the messiah establishment Labour thought he'd be and I don't think we need to wait another 3 years and watch him doom us to a further 5 at the hands of the Tories, to be able to see that. We need establishment (New) Labour and Momentum Labour to both recognise that they are living anachronisms and completely irrelevant. And to start over from there.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/labour-will-build-a-better-britain-for-working-people Keir has spoken to the country and come up with the following: 1 - Tax hikes bad, Labour will reverse. 2 - Decentralise power - bizarrely linked to Brexit. 3 - Waffle about providing opportunity. This is his bid to win over the right leaning middle, I assume. Unimaginative, obvious, and devoid of any meaningful vision or strategy. Nothing to get excited about. But who knows, maybe full bodied beige is the way to victory.

I mean even without the BBC being servile, the opposition prefer to go to war with themselves anyway. We're going nowhere other than Tory for a few good years. We need a new Blair desperately.

I think the BBC is in trouble, aware that it's not long for this world if public opinion remains as it does, and is pandering as best it can. It has a choice to make. It can be be truthful and honest, and be disbanded by the government to the cheers of right wing fuckmuppets everywhere, or it can pander to them until its not recognisable as anything other than a Daily Mail variant, having long since been abandoned by intelligent people and yet still despised by the ageing boomers it yearns for the approval of. Seems like it's chosen the latter.

5 innocent kids.. seriously? That's fucking tragic.

This article doesn't say much though. The solitary point it makes in defence of withdrawing is that the cost of lives in maintaining the status quo remains significant. And that's fair enough but there's not enough detail given either in this article or in the one it links to, to actually be able to firm up that judgement. The rest of the article is attacking the press - and I'm normally right on board with that, but I'm afraid that Biden having been elected by 83m Americans and being supported by 70% of his country doesn't actually make him right, despite what the article appears to be claiming. It just makes his decision popular. It further claims that we shouldn't trust policy experts and military officials over a civilian generalist, which I find bizarre. I went into that one with an open mind but it's usual guardian style "look at us giving the floor to both sides of this without actually putting a credible argument forward" stuff. You made a better case for this the other day than this article does.

True, but they'll have to invade Taiwan if they want that back. Which they do. I'd estimate within 10 years. And don't forget they have a populace full of raving nationalists. Expansionism may well become a bigger part of their plan once the US declines. Either way though, I don't want China to be the world super power. I still think far worse than the US. Xi Jinping has been more and more aggressive and recent times in both speeches and policy. Would far prefer Europe to take over again, possibly with support from Russia in a post-Putin era. Either way, China replacing the US is not good news in my book.

True, but the US retreating from the world stage like this is going to create a vacuum of power and encourage countries like China to go on the take. The whole thing is worrying to me, I'm not personally of the opinion that Western civilisation is all bad and I fear for people elsewhere. Maybe that's arrogant but it is what it is. I do feel that we had a responsibility to Afghanistan after everything we did, and I do not think anything we have done here meets that responsibility. At least we're taking refugees I suppose.