Happy Face 29 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 This is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here. Why? You opposed the war right? Would have voted no? A million people marched in opposition and said the evidence was false at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 So, again, that link...? Cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14059 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Cunt cunt cunt cunt cunt........ Marginally more intelligent than that article you hadn't read yet posted to try and shut down an entire thread of argument (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 Why? You opposed the war right? Would have voted no? A million people marched in opposition and said the evidence was false at the time. MP's had no opportunity to "judge" the evidence. They were given dossiers etc based on lies and sold by the government of the day as truths. Unbelievable you are arguing this tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34561 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Tony Blair had a vote in commons on the legality of his war. The vote was based on misinformation, but all members were able to judge the evidence and vote with their conscience. 91.4% of conservatives voted in favour. 83.2% of Labour voted for it. David Cameron himself voted yes http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2003-03-18&number=118&display=allpossible Cameron didn't offer any vote for action in Syria. When we decide to bomb another country, UK law demands a vote. So only Blair stayed on the right side of that one. International law is another matter, but neither of them are on solid ground there either. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/islamic-state-air-strikes-on-isis-in-syria-could-be-illegal-9734474.html CT left wondering where his underpants have gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14059 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 CT left wondering where his underpants have gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34561 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Aye they'll not be lost for long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34561 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Must look like the tall ships race when his lass hangs the washing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 MP's had no opportunity to "judge" the evidence. They were given dossiers etc based on lies and sold by the government of the day as truths. Unbelievable you are arguing this tbh. I'm not arguing that. I raised that. The difference between agitating for war and sexing up evidence for war ahead of a vote, and going to war without any vote at all, without presenting any evidence to be judged should be very easily understood, even by you. Of course Cameron had an earlier vote and was unequivocally refused permission to get involved. That's why he didn't bother with a vote this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 I'm not arguing that. I raised that. The difference between agitating for war and sexing up evidence for war ahead of a vote, and going to war without any vote at all, without presenting any evidence to be judged should be very easily understood, even by you. Of course Cameron had an earlier vote and was unequivocally refused permission to get involved. That's why he didn't bother with a vote this time. Three pilots were seconded to US and Canadian forces. The entire British forces were sent to war based on lies. These two events are about as far apart as it's possible to get. You are now wriggling around trying to justify this stupid comparison. (To win an argument on the Internet). Not worth my time or yours really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34561 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 You're absolutely right that it's not worth HIS time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14059 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Maybe he could post a link he hasn't read to try and win the argument instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Three pilots were seconded to US and Canadian forces. You're underplaying the UK involvement there but I'm glad you've evolved from your original position which was "No illegal wars" Shall we do apprenticeships next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) The whole of Europe bar Finland and Holland are moving to the left. Neo-Liberlalism and austerity don't grow economies and money funneled up the tree rarely comes back down, the much vaunted trickle down has failed demonstrably. Fairer distribution of wealth and higher taxes for the rich and big business is the only way Capitalism will survive. Left wing in European terms is soft-right we aren't talking about a sea change we're still really talking about tinkering around the edges. Sovereign debt has primarily been caused by a smaller tax base across the board which has been the direct result of de-industrialisation of Europe (bar Germany) and a smaller tax marquee which is easy to avoid for multi-nationals. If the West don't address this there is no way of getting debt down. That's just a fact. The Tories are still borrowing huge amounts of money. Edited August 6, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonotl 2431 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 We're approaching escape velocity for a flounce here. Anything you want to say to CT, say it now, or wait until tomorrow when he's logged in as a guest, whichever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 You're underplaying the UK involvement there but I'm glad you've evolved from your original position which was "No illegal wars" Shall we do apprenticeships next? I mentioned seconded pilots four hours ago but your that busy floundering you probably missed it. Seconding pilots is not starting an illegal war. Your comparison remains ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I mentioned seconded pilots four hours ago but your that busy floundering you probably missed it. Seconding pilots is not starting an illegal war. Your comparison remains ridiculous. I'm not comparing them. You are. YOU said Cameron hadn't got British forces tied up in any wars illegally. I reminded you he has. You floundered and started comparing him with other illegal warmongers I disapprove of. Not sure why. So, now we agree Cameron's been a naughty boy on the war front, what about all those apprentices in their late 20s? Good thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I guess American nukes on UK soil isn't even discussed anymore. Making us a Tier one target if anything happens with Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30442 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Must look like the tall ships race when his lass hangs the washing out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 I'm not comparing them. You are. YOU said Cameron hadn't got British forces tied up in any wars illegally. I reminded you he has. You floundered and started comparing him with other illegal warmongers I disapprove of. Not sure why. So, now we agree Cameron's been a naughty boy on the war front, what about all those apprentices in their late 20s? Good thing? Nice play on words. I said no illegal wars. Have we started an illegal war, no. You've come rushing in linking the secondment of a few pilots to disprove my point. You haven't. It's very doubtful if anyone is actually claiming that the secondment of a few pilots is even illegal. This is exactly the kind of simplistic discussion that is a waste of time. No more for me today thanks all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14059 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 No more for me today thanks all the same. I'll believe that when I don't bother reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30442 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Nice play on words. I said no illegal wars. Have we started an illegal war, no. You've come rushing in linking the secondment of a few pilots to disprove my point. You haven't. It's very doubtful if anyone is actually claiming that the secondment of a few pilots is even illegal. This is exactly the kind of simplistic discussion that is a waste of time. No more for me today thanks all the same. I think you're right that you can't compare the two. At the same time you can't compare the circumstances. Do you genuinely think the current government would have behaved any differently? Not a party political point scoring thing because I think virtually any UK government would've acted the same unfortunately (any one that would've got elected). The point I'm trying to make is that it's not a fair comparison because the circumstances have been very different. I also pointed out that we could've been much more deeply involved in Syria by now were it not for reticence of the part of the opposition. Have we really learnt anything from the mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan? I think talking about the legality of the war in Iraq is missing the point anyway. I doubt it'll ever be proven to the extent that convictions are made that the war was illegal. Was it morally wrong though? I think everyone on here, more or less, thinks that is the case. Was it based on lies? Probably. Again, how will that ever be proven? You can't demonstrate that the WMDs weren't destroyed or moved out of the country after the war commenced. Of course, if it's the latter, the conflict created a situation it was meant to prevent, i.e. them potentially being used against 'The West' and/or its allies in the region. HF has a point about raising concerns over our involvement in Syria though too I think. It should be something Parliament debates and decides on because we have to have a very firm idea of what we're getting involved in. There's been recent talk about more involvement in Syria too recently iirc, using the RAF at first but when has bombing just worked? What are we going to do next? It's another mess waiting to happen. Especially if the Republicans get into the White House. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14615 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Cameron wanted to arm "the Syrian opposition" who 12 months later we were calling Isis. Ed Milliband lead a very well argued opposition to this and the proposal was voted down. It seems that parliament in general has learned it's lesson from Iraq/Afghanistan but seemingly not the PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 30442 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I think, irrespective of the scale, getting round the parliamentary decision not to get involved in Syria by effectively outsourcing UK military personnel is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayatollah Hermione 12767 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 CT on about simplistic discussion, dear me. Aye, I much prefer your well balanced and informative views on 80s music, they're very in-depth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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