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Another thing that pisses me off about the referendum was that the people who would be affected most by Brexit didn't have a say on it. That's EU nationals living in the UK (and contributing taxes), UK immigrants living in Europe, and young people coming up to University age (possibly eligible for Erasmus). Well done Brexiteers for fucking their lives up, several people I know just gave up on the UK and moved back home. Were talking highly professional people here who can't be easily replaced. But yeah, we just need to get behind it. 

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Club Tropicana (CT remix '18)   Let me take you to the place Where membership's Britain's disgrace Blue flag with lots of stars. Where strangers take you by the hand And welcome you

I remember a few people saying, some years ago when this was all kicking off, that maybe Brexit is what this country needs to finally move on from the Imperial past and embrace a global future. The fa

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24 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

That's the thing about polarised politics. Everything the other side does is dishonest, fake news etc. And the result is democracy not being respected

 

The problem with that statement though is it gives cover to the side that are worst by implying that both sides are the same. Yes, there is spin and dishonesty on all sides of most political arguments, but we're talking 90% on one side here. There's a reason all the professors, scientists and experts lined up on one side of the argument around Brexit - not because they all had vested interests in the outcomes, but because they spend their lives analysing data dispassionately and using it to form evidence based conclusions. Quite how we got to the point where these people's opinions on their specialist subjects should be weighed the same as people who can only be described as dangerously uninformed... I mean I'm not completely certain, but I think it's at least partially from statements like the one you've just made.

 

So the problem then becomes that you have one side that is mostly truthful being compared to a side that is almost always lying. And because people who support the liars aren't idiots, and can see that their side is lying, they feel like they have to assume that "everyone in politics is lying" in order to continue to justify their positions. Not everyone was lying about Brexit - a lot of what Remain said wasn't fake news and we can see that now because it's actually happening. Hardly anyone on 'our side' is lying about the pandemic. Or vaccines.

 

I read plenty of right wing news sources and I can see the areas where the left is disingenuous, but this isn't a left right issue as has been said before. It's a common sense versus wilful ignorance issue.

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Added to that, part of the reason for the ongoing lack of acceptance of the referendum result is how close it was, because that makes it all the easier to believe that specific lies in the run-up to the referendum made the difference. If it had been 65-35, well, okay, a sober analysis could still easily attribute that to a deliberate drip-feed of misinformation over a longer period of time, but it wouldn't feel quite as much like daylight robbery. But when it's 51.9-48.1, it's not hard to think that a "TURKEY (population 76 million) IS JOINING THE EU" leaflet on every doormat and a "Britain's new border is with SYRIA and IRAQ" advert on every Facebook feed were enough to tip the scales, and I'll never not be at least a little bit angry about that.

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1 hour ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

Renton and those that stormed Capitol Hill, standing shoulder to shoulder 

You’re shit at this btw 

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I mean, IMO on this you're wrong. Renton is exercising free speech to voice an opinion on a political event. The Capitol Hill insurrectionists forced their way into a government building to (ridiculously) attempt to force a coup d'etat.

 

You'll be right once Renton storms Parliament :lol:

 

How is it the same?

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1 hour ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

Two groups not respecting a democratic vote. Tell me I'm wrong

Come on, why can’t you just gracefully accept to be conned. That’s how fraud works, no need to be angry about it.

An understanding of democracy as one of just sticking to unchangeable majority decisions is rather flawed tbh.

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1 minute ago, Isegrim said:

Come on, why can’t you just gracefully accept to be conned. That’s how fraud works, no need to be angry about it.

An understanding of democracy as one of just sticking to unchangeable majority decisions is rather flawed tbh.

They weren't conned. 

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13 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

The key for me is you shutting the fuck up. Everybody with a different view is a wum. It's partially reading the rabid shite vitriolic patter off you lot that's helped me form my opinions

 

This is never a good basis for the forming of an opinion. It's the same as when people claim they're note going to vote Labour because people keep calling them stupid. Like, I understand that no one likes to be called stupid, but that's a really idk... insecure way of coming to a political position.

 

Also I mostly just wanted to share that image tbh, apologies if it offended ;) 

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I also doubt you'll find anyone here who thinks this place is anything other than an echo chamber tbh. And honestly I would prefer a bit more diversity of opinion myself, but I understand that the aggressive nature of the debate on here tends to put people off. So I mean honestly, not really going to disagree with what you've said :lol: 

 

But you have to understand that we've had these debates to death (I mean you know this, you've been in them) and I think the stage we're all at now is that we know our positions on this. You've come in with a stance wherein you've spent a few weeks trying to encourage us to listen to the other side of this, which I think tbf, all of us have done. You'd get more traction if you came in with actual information from the other side, rather than just protesting us calling them stupid.

 

I will gladly discuss, in a charitable way, any detail on most areas of politics. I've watched fucking hundreds of hours of right wing commentators and podcasts, I've been around the block with their views many times. Some of them are reasonable, many of them are disingenuous. But seriously, I'm more than happy to be educated on an alternative viewpoint if it's more logical than my own. I'll even pivot to it if it makes sense.

 

I mean ffs, I spent about two solid days arguing in defence of the Tories over a nursing policy a couple of years back, because I felt that everyone was misinterpreting what they had said. I remember it fondly tbh :D

 

For my part, sorry if anything I've said has bothered you.

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13 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I also doubt you'll find anyone here who thinks this place is anything other than an echo chamber tbh. And honestly I would prefer a bit more diversity of opinion myself, but I understand that the aggressive nature of the debate on here tends to put people off. So I mean honestly, not really going to disagree with what you've said :lol: 

 

But you have to understand that we've had these debates to death (I mean you know this, you've been in them) and I think the stage we're all at now is that we know our positions on this. You've come in with a stance wherein you've spent a few weeks trying to encourage us to listen to the other side of this, which I think tbf, all of us have done. You'd get more traction if you came in with actual information from the other side, rather than just protesting us calling them stupid.

 

I will gladly discuss, in a charitable way, any detail on most areas of politics. I've watched fucking hundreds of hours of right wing commentators and podcasts, I've been around the block with their views many times. Some of them are reasonable, many of them are disingenuous. But seriously, I'm more than happy to be educated on an alternative viewpoint if it's more logical than my own. I'll even pivot to it if it makes sense.

 

I mean ffs, I spent about two solid days arguing in defence of the Tories over a nursing policy a couple of years back, because I felt that everyone was misinterpreting what they had said. I remember it fondly tbh :D

 

For my part, sorry if anything I've said has bothered you.

 

Stop apologising ffs! Although aye, you can still keep apologising for the nurse fiasco.

 

I've agreed with just about everything you've said today and in this post. From my pov, I'm fucking sick to death of the same old arguments, the sheer ignorance of Brexiteers about trade and regulations, but most of all by constantly having my own views misrepresented. The sam old strawman arguments, whataboutery, and deflections. And the incredible self pity and victimhood displayed by gammons. Its a waste of time and time is a commodity i don't have much of any more. I do however remain interested in how this situation will play out and factual information about it. Brexit is a process, it's never going to be done, and it affects all of us. If queef doesn't like peoplemtalking about it, he knows what to do. 

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