Soldier killed

[Dr Gloom 19822]

the whole thing is fucking sickening. happened just up the road from my manor too.

[Kid Dynamite 5906]

Stevie giving this place a wide berth I see. Apoplectic on twitter about Islam/Muslims/Foreign Invaders

Edited May 22, 2013 by TheRollingStones

[Happy Face 29]

 

So you think that the fact Muslims tend to be responsible for this 'retaliation' is just a statistical association and not something more fundamental. That is, you don't believe these crimes are religiously rather than politically motivated? Just to be clear, is all.

 

The CIA themselves have studied the causes behind terror attacks and advised that they don't hate us for our freedom or our religion but because of the hundreds of thousands of lives extinguished in Muslim countries by our forces.

 

Why do you think they targeted a military individual? Is that not an act of war rather than terrorism?

 

 

 

[luckyluke 1]

 

 

Or of course more likely it is just a symptom of extremist Islamic thinking and really fuck all to do with our colonialist past. After all, how many Christian Africans are hacking people's heads off in London in broad daylight?

 

Maybe. It probably was. Did you read my second paragraph? The point is we've given people from more or less every country in the world enough shit to hold a grievance with us. I was merely addressing the point that despite us not currently engaged in open warfare with Africa (yes, all of it) that people from there might still have reason to be angry with us and use this as motivation for any form of revenge they feel appropriate, it legitimate/correct/legal/righteous or not.

[luckyluke 1]

That's not what you said though. It's also bigoted to suggest the majority of Muslims aren't bringing their offspring up to be law abiding well balanced folks. I work with a lot of Muslims. None of them are terrorists as far as I can tell

 

You never can tell...

[Dr Gloom 19822]

That's not what you said though. It's also bigoted to suggest the majority of Muslims aren't bringing their offspring up to be law abiding well balanced folks. I work with a lot of Muslims. None of them are terrorists as far as I can tell

 

obviously the majority of moderate muslims in the country will be just as appalled by this as the rest of us. it's pretty obvious from what i wrote that i'm not suggesting they're all terrorists. but certainly in london there are a number of these radical islamist preachers and there's an awareness that they exist among the muslim community.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Dr Gloom

[Kid Dynamite 5906]

Of course there's an awareness they exist. They don't all share barbers though. Your average Joe Muslim doesn't rub shoulders with Abu Hamza

[Renton 17767]

The CIA themselves have studied the causes behind terror attacks and advised that they don't hate us for our freedom or our religion but because of the hundreds of thousands of lives extinguished in Muslim countries by our forces.

 

Why do you think they targeted a military individual? Is that not an act of war rather than terrorism?

 

I think its an act of murder motivated by religion. As was 7/7 which didn't involve any soldiers. As was 9/11 which didn't involve any soldiers and of course predated the second Iraq war and Afghanistan.

 

Three things specifically concern me compared with other religions. First, the general lack of integration of Muslims with mainstream British society. Second, their sense of global brotherhood as well as their sense of perceived injustice. Third, the unique violence the extremes of this religion seems to breed. Throw in a bit of socioeconomic deprivation and you have the perfect cocktail for atrocities like today. They won't happen that often, but probably enough to fuel the far right and cause ongoing social problems. Depressing.

[PaddockLad 14585]

I'm in bed on my phone. I've seen the bit where he apologizes that women have seen it, but says women see much worse in his country because of our government.

 

The fact that our government bomb and kill people in his country therefore seemed to me to be the motivating factor.

 

The fact we are bombing Muslim countries means that when there is retaliation, of course its likely to come from Muslim individuals.

 

Has it been established which country these pair were from?...they mentioned Nigeria on the news, which is basically a sharia state in the north iirc. Have we been sending the drones in there?

[luckyluke 1]

Of course there's an awareness they exist. They don't all share barbers though. Your average Joe Muslim doesn't rub shoulders with Abu Hamza

 

Hi, I'm Joe Muslim, pleased to meet you. No pork for me please.

[LoveTheBobby 1]

In the longer version of the Sun video I'm sure the thick cunt says "bring our troops home"

 

Mentally deficient lost souls living in a brutal fucking shithole with no prospects whatsoever with a tragically indoctrinated warped outlook that sees them 'become someone' .

 

Both called Joe .

Edited May 22, 2013 by LoveTheBobby

[LoveTheBobby 1]

From a hearts-and-minds UK perspective there was an interesting debate on Newsnight earlier highlighting the fact Al Q publish (a relatively easily available globally in terms of technology needed) e-newsletter or daily paper (?) that has a massive readership and how all parties (muslim groups included) are aware of the need to produce a "counter-narrative" . Ongoing work they said .

[Ken 119]

Hopefully some good will come out of this for the UK, although I don't know what can actually be done (regarding domestic anti-western values). I guess the first step is to want to do something about it. I hope Australia watches and learns, because we are heading down the same path.

[CleeToonFan 1]

Sick of religion. This combined with the entire 'pray for Oklahoma...', 'Gods Will' shite that's going on in America. Can't believe anyone seriously believes that shite for one and for two its clear it does no good for the world. 'Your slightly different religion means I want to kill you.' Just fuck it all.

[Happy Face 29]

 

Has it been established which country these pair were from?...they mentioned Nigeria on the news, which is basically a sharia state in the north iirc. Have we been sending the drones in there?

 

Said earlier I have no idea where they are from.

 

The nature of the drone campaign and the secrecy surrounding it means the US (and us by extension) wage war in several countries without acknowledging it. There are 6 middle eastern and African countries that have been independently confirmed as being bombed.

 

Nigeria is at least being patrolled....

 

http://mobile.saharareporters.com/news-page/boko-haram-drones-patrolling-nigeria%E2%80%99s-borders-niger-chad-cameroon-%E2%80%93-source

 

[Tooj 17]

Conservative MP on Daybreak using this as an excuse to talk about the Human Rights Act.

[Monkeys Fist 38755]

Conservative MP on Daybreak using this as an excuse to talk about the Human Rights Act.

I'm surprised the cunt didn't blame it on their being on benefits.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3199]

My statement about it being fuck all to do with Islam is that it probably goes against islamic teaching. These cunts in the Madras's and radical arseholes here don't tell them what the Qu'ran actually preaches. They cherry pick out of context and make huge swathes of shit up.

[Dr Gloom 19822]

Of course there's an awareness they exist. They don't all share barbers though. Your average Joe Muslim doesn't rub shoulders with Abu Hamza

 

The kid on the video with blood on his hands and welding a butcher's knife sounded like he was either born or raised in this country. The fact that he's been motivated to carry out the kind of barbaric and senseless atrocity tells me there's something wrong in this country. He isn't learning this behaviour at school. Highly unlikely his parents encouraged him to do it - this is a modern phenomenon. So where?

 

Yes, a lot of propaganda is out there on the Internet for kids that already feel aggrieved. But there are scores of radical jihadist clerics out there that are being allowed to further poison young and impressionable minds. There is no place for it in this country. It has to stop.

 

Now, if I were a moderate Muslim and I knew of or even suspected there were one of these preachers operating in my community, I wouldn't think twice about reporting them to the police. And i would raise the alarm pretty quickly if i suspected for a moment that a member of my family or someone I knew had been radicalised to the point they might be motivated to butcher someone on the street.

 

There's nothing bigoted about any of this. I'm proud to live in an inclusive and tolerant society. But yesterday's events were intolerable. And I firmly believe something has to be done at the grassroots level to help prevent further attacks.

[Happy Face 29]

My statement about it being fuck all to do with Islam is that it probably goes against islamic teaching. These cunts in the Madras's and radical arseholes here don't tell them what the Qu'ran actually preaches. They cherry pick out of context and make huge swathes of shit up.

 

Spot on.

 

Still can't find a full transcript of what was said by them. Anyone able to steal a copy from behind the Times Paywall and hoy it up? I can only read the first few lines.....

 

“The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers.

 

“And this British soldier is one. It is an eye for eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting until you leave us alone.

 

“So what if we want to live by Sharia in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us.

“R....

 

....."You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start bussin' our guns? You think politicians are going to die?

 

"No it's going to be the average guy, like you, and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so you can all live in peace."

 

http://www.thetimes....icle3772760.ece

[Happy Face 29]

I think its an act of murder motivated by religion. As was 7/7 which didn't involve any soldiers. As was 9/11 which didn't involve any soldiers and of course predated the second Iraq war and Afghanistan.

 

Three things specifically concern me compared with other religions. First, the general lack of integration of Muslims with mainstream British society. Second, their sense of global brotherhood as well as their sense of perceived injustice. Third, the unique violence the extremes of this religion seems to breed. Throw in a bit of socioeconomic deprivation and you have the perfect cocktail for atrocities like today. They won't happen that often, but probably enough to fuel the far right and cause ongoing social problems. Depressing.

 

In my opinion, the motivation for this was exactly what they said it was. No more about Islam than Obama saying "God Bless The United States of America" makes his bombing campaigns in several muslim countries about christianity.

 

Despite what the perpetrators say, you have decided their motivation was religious, based upon your preconceived notions on the evil of Islam.

 

The reasons they have given in the short video snippets seen correlate with the the motivation cited following the majority of attempted or successful attacks by muslims....

 

Attempted "underwear bomber" Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab upon pleading guilty:

 

"I had an agreement with at least one person to attack the United States in retaliation for US support of Israel and in retaliation of the killing of innocent and civilian Muslim populations in Palestine, especially in the blockade of Gaza, and in retaliation for the killing of innocent and civilian Muslim populations in Yemen, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan and beyond, most of them women, children, and noncombatants."

 

Attempted Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad, the first Pakistani-American involved in such a plot, upon pleading guilty:

 

 

 

 

"If the United States does not get out of Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries controlled by Muslims, he said, 'we will be attacking US', adding that Americans 'only care about their people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die' . . . .

"As soon as he was taken into custody May 3 at John F. Kennedy International Airport, onboard a flight to Dubai, the Pakistani-born Shahzad told agents that he was motivated by opposition to US policy in the Muslim world, officials said."

When he was asked by the federal judge presiding over his case how he could possibly have been willing to detonate bombs that would kill innocent children, he replied:

"Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq, they don't see children, they don't see anybody. They kill women, children, they kill everybody. It's a war, and in war, they kill people. They're killing all Muslims. . . .

 

"I am part of the answer to the US terrorizing the Muslim nations and the Muslim people. And, on behalf of that, I'm avenging the attack. Living in the United States, Americans only care about their own people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die."

 

 

Attempted NYC subway bomber Najibullah Zazi, the first Afghan-American involved in such a plot, upon pleading guilty:

 

 

 

 

"Your Honor, during the spring and summer of 2008, I conspired with others to travel to Afghanistan to join the Taliban and fight against the U.S. military and its allies. . . . During the training, Al Qaeda leaders asked us to return to the United States and conduct martyrdom operation. We agreed to this plan. I did so because of my feelings about what the United States was doing in Afghanistan."

 

Fort Hood shooter Nidal Hasan:

 

 

 

 

"Part of his disenchantment was his deep and public opposition to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, a stance shared by some medical colleagues but shaped for him by a growing religious fervor. The strands of religion and antiwar sentiment seemed to weave together in a PowerPoint presentation he made at Walter Reed in June 2007. . . . For a master's program in public health, Major Hasan gave another presentation to his environmental health class titled 'Why The War on Terror is a War on Islam.'"

 

etc.

 

They do cling to religion, probably because it's impossible to reconcile such a monstrous act with fighting a just cause, so they justify it as a divine cause. It's not the clinical approach of the western war machine that allows someone in Ohio to press a button that obliterates a dozen people thousands of miles away.

[NJS 3978]

I think HF and Renton are both sort of right - I think this concept of brotherhood which tbh I think is actually a good concept when not used for violence underpins a lust for revenge which is to some extent understandable. However theres no getting away from the fact its a religion which underpins the brotherhood.

 

[aimaad22 3466]

Sigh, everytime an incident like this happens its the same predictable reaction.

 

As a muslim Im well past being bothered by it by now. What absolutely sickens me though is that 40 people bombed to death in an Afghan wedding by a drone doesnt even cause a hundredth of the reaction. What kind of world are we living in? Its just depressing.

 

Believe what you want but as someone right in the middle of your 'war on terror' over the last 12 years, all this has got very little to do with religion.

 

Since 9/11 there have been close to 400 suicide bombings in Pakistan. Four fucking hundred! Can you believe that? Thats just suicide bombings, forget the tons of other planted bombs, rocket attacks etc etc. Now how many were there before 9/11? One. Yeah, just one. Despite all the turmoil in Afghanistan, despite the Taliban sitting next door, despite our armed tribal militants, depsite the fact we were all still muslims, despite the fact there was even then no shortage of crazed mullahs, just one attack in over 50 years. Since then? Absolute turmoil. Make of it what you want.

[ewerk 26327]

I think HF and Renton are both sort of right - I think this concept of brotherhood which tbh I think is actually a good concept when not used for violence underpins a lust for revenge which is to some extent understandable. However theres no getting away from the fact its a religion which underpins the brotherhood.

 

Exactly, the political an religious motivations for this appear to be intertwined. They see the British military action as an attack on their religion.

[aimaad22 3466]

Politics aside, its a horrific incident. Cant imagine what the soldiers' family must be going through.