Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Okay. I'm in the same boat as Renton here. Â Firstly, what has she lied about that is so significant? And secondly, just what has she done with Wall Street that worries you so much? Â She's not lied about anything serious to my knowledge. She's lied though. So it seems fitting to call her a liar (Bosnia, sniper fire). No? I'm not voting for her remember, I'm just setting out my views. I've thought she was a total pillock since that lie came out, small though it may be, because it's exactly the sort of bullshit that a 'typical politician' might say. Except, not a very smart one. Renton asked what I personally have against her and I've said previously 'not much', but since we're putting so fine a point on it, this is one of those things. Â Nothing she's done with wall street 'worries' me. It's just that they are a very wealthy and controlling influence with a vested interest in the status quo, and they support her - they support her because of all candidates on offer (including when she was up against Sanders), she was deemed to be the candidate who most had their interests at heart: Â http://www.wsj.com/articles/financial-sector-gives-hillary-clinton-a-boost-1462750725 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 We're never going to get the sort of change you're after with FPTP. Nor will the USA with their two party system. Â I agree. Although it does make me wonder what we're going to get instead. I just don't see how this 'fizzles out'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26505 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 She's not lied about anything serious to my knowledge. She's lied though. So it seems fitting to call her a liar (Bosnia, sniper fire). No? I'm not voting for her remember, I'm just setting out my views. I've thought she was a total pillock since that lie came out, small though it may be, because it's exactly the sort of bullshit that a 'typical politician' might say. Except, not a very smart one. Renton asked what I personally have against her and I've said previously 'not much', but since we're putting so fine a point on it, this is one of those things. Â Nothing she's done with wall street 'worries' me. It's just that they are a very wealthy and controlling influence with a vested interest in the status quo, and they support her - they support her because of all candidates on offer (including when she was up against Sanders), she was deemed to be the candidate who most had their interests at heart: Â http://www.wsj.com/articles/financial-sector-gives-hillary-clinton-a-boost-1462750725 Â So naturally you've withdrawn your support for Corbyn after he lied about the packed train? Â And maybe Wall Street supported her because they believe that she's the best choice to deliver a strong American economy and that is in the interest of both themselves and the rest of the country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 How the fuck do you manage the adverse effects of globalism though? The genie won't go back in the bottle. My view is the only way is to be pragmatic and minimise the negatives as much as possible. Because the alternative is insularism, nationalism, and ultimately war. Â I was having this debate with my old man last night. He made the same point - he's definitely on your side of the political spectrum. Â You can't put it back in the bottle, but you have to be seen to be doing something to demonstrate to the people who feel they've been put to one side that actually, you're on their side. That you're making choices that benefit them. This means the establishment/elites/whatever have to be seen to be feeling the pain. In fairness to the working classes, Brexit has achieved that and then some. Even if they're going to feel it worse, in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 So naturally you've withdrawn your support for Corbyn after he lied about the packed train? Â And maybe Wall Street supported her because they believe that she's the best choice to deliver a strong American economy and that is in the interest of both themselves and the rest of the country? Â I read enough people coming forward claiming that the train was packed that it muddied it for me. Sorry, I'm offering him the benefit of the doubt on that one. In the small window of time where it seemed clear cut that he had lied, I condemned it (on here). That said, Corbyn is actually right about overcrowding on trains. What political point did 'landing in Bosnia under sniper fire' serve to support, other than her own personal interests? Â On Wall Street, yep, they probably do believe that. There are bits of slightly concerning information out there, like about how she's refused to release the details of speeches she gave at Goldman Sachs, but generally you're probably right. What is in the interests of the elites on wall street though, is maximising their wealth. This very likely means minimising the wealth of others. Â What is interesting, is that the average wage of Trump supporters is higher than that of Hillary's voters. I suspect that BAME communities cover this to a degree, given his rhetoric, but it does rather refute the idea that Trump is the voice of the normal man any more than she is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) All I see all over the place is that the establishment/neo-liberals/austerity crowd/are trying to hang on and their is a huge tide building to break down all their sacred cows. Significant parts of the population in Europe, UK and the U.S. are hitting out blindly across a spectrum of fears. It will get bigger. The more the bogus center try to deny it the stronger it will get. Â It's not a case that they won't come clean they aren't allowed to change course. Proven failed economic policy is being stuck to because greater powers than 'the people' want it. The people are aware of that now and at every chance they will try and wreak havoc on the current fundamentals. Edited October 20, 2016 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26505 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I read enough people coming forward claiming that the train was packed that it muddied it for me. Sorry, I'm offering him the benefit of the doubt on that one. In the small window of time where it seemed clear cut that he had lied, I condemned it (on here). That said, Corbyn is actually right about overcrowding on trains. What political point did 'landing in Bosnia under sniper fire' serve to support, other than her own personal interests? Â Okay, so how about when he denied saying that we should trigger Article 50 the morning after the vote? When he claimed that Labour were leading in the polls in May? Both lies. In fact he's now a serial liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Oh FFS Â I've not seen either of those. Let me google it, hang on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26505 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I am literally tearing your world apart right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 19844 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Oh FFS  I've not seen either of those. Let me google it, hang on.  he's a politician. they're all the same. even the so-called principled ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 (edited) A mass of resignations from the Shadow Cabinet and 75 per cent vote of no confidence have left Mr Corbyn with a minimal following. The rush of new members to the party, however, raises Labour’s total membership to around 450,000 – higher than its last peak of 405,000 during Tony Blair’s leadership in 1997."  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-gains-60000-new-members-following-attempted-coup-against-corbyn-a7112336.html  Think it's half a million now.  Yeah he's obviously a disaster. Edited October 20, 2016 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26505 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 he's a politician. they're all the same. even the so-called principled ones.  That's my point. I may be badly paraphrasing someone here but if you expect your politicians to be truthful 100% of the time then you're asking to be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Ok, I'm going to ignore the second one as I found too many poll related articles to do with his leadership election and can't be bothered to sort through it. Â On the other one, it looks to me as though he's been caught bang to rights on that one. So yes, that'd mean at the hustings, he lied. He should have just owned the mistake. I'm not withdrawing my support though Largely because that would be, for me, a personal reason to have issue with him. Not a policy one. I also have an issue with his stance on the EU, his lack of firm leadership, and his inability to sort the party out (even taking into consideration the utter shambles the PLP presented him with). But none of that is as important to me as his message and policies. Â Hillary also has my support in this contest, despite being a liar. I would prefer her to Trump. So as you can see, my friend, I am consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26505 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I'm still waiting for you to apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Â Well played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Ok, I'm going to ignore the second one as I found too many poll related articles to do with his leadership election and can't be bothered to sort through it. Â On the other one, it looks to me as though he's been caught bang to rights on that one. So yes, that'd mean at the hustings, he lied. He should have just owned the mistake. I'm not withdrawing my support though Largely because that would be, for me, a personal reason to have issue with him. Not a policy one. I also have an issue with his stance on the EU, his lack of firm leadership, and his inability to sort the party out (even taking into consideration the utter shambles the PLP presented him with). But none of that is as important to me as his message and policies. Â Hillary also has my support in this contest, despite being a liar. I would prefer her to Trump. So as you can see, my friend, I am consistent. That's the key and why the PLP hate him and the elite media attack dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 That's the key and why the PLP hate him and the elite media attack dogs. Â True. Although the PLP did put up someone to challenge him with nearly identical policies, which does make me wonder if they'd be prepared to adopt the same views, as long as it can be on their terms. Obviously you wouldn't trust them to do this, but a few years ago it might have done the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 70 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 True. Although the PLP did put up someone to challenge him with nearly identical policies, which does make me wonder if they'd be prepared to adopt the same views, as long as it can be on their terms. Obviously you wouldn't trust them to do this, but a few years ago it might have done the trick. The PLP are in crisis with reg to Corbyn as most of them are basically to all intents and purposes Tory lite. It's like they've been parachuted into an ep of Lost and Locke has taken over and somehow the island likes Locke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayatollah Hermione 12768 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Regardless of whether or not it's Clinton or Trump, America will find someone to test their drone weaponry on like they always do, black people will still get shot dead because their police force is governed by white supremacists and we'll all still watch their telly anyway. Don't look at me, Marge. I voted for Kodos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Regardless of whether or not it's Clinton or Trump, America will find someone to test their drone weaponry on like they always do, black people will still get shot dead because their police force is governed by white supremacists and we'll all still watch their telly anyway. Don't look at me, Marge. I voted for Kodos  Cynical but true. If it's Clinton, she has suggested drone striking Assange, so that's an option as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17841 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 he's a politician. they're all the same. even the so-called principled ones. Corbyn is as full of spin and shit as all the others yet some regard him as a demigod. Â http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/08/10-times-jeremy-corbyn-used-dark-arts-spin-devastating-effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 17841 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Cynical but true. If it's Clinton, she has suggested drone striking Assange, so that's an option as well. Yes, because she seriously suggested that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34674 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 ALL POLITICIANS ARE FULL OF SHIT ESPECIALLY THAT CUNT CORBYN....... but not my Hillary..... Myyyyy precioussssssss Hillary... Â Shut your face Renton. Shut it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 4964 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 26505 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 And the source for that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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