US election 2016

[adios 717]

No war...?

[Renton 17841]

No war...?

What war?

[adios 717]

I know you know which war I'm talking about, so why don't you go ahead and make your point, smartarse.

[Renton 17841]

I know you know which war I'm talking about, so why don't you go ahead and make your point, smartarse.

 

I honestly don't. Bill Clinton presided over the period between Iraq 1 and Afghanistan/Iraq 2. I can't think of a significant conflict he was embroiled in.

[Renton 17841]

Btw, HF did insinuate that the rise of AQ was partly down to a lack of proactivity on Clinton"s watch a week or so back, but then I get the feeling nothing a democrat does will be correct in his eyes.

[Rayvin 4964]

It's not that they're democrats, it's that they're Neoliberals.

[Renton 17841]

Pointless tagging. Are neoliberals worse than neoconservatives anyway?

[Happy Face 29]

Btw, HF did insinuate that the rise of AQ was partly down to a lack of proactivity on Clinton"s watch a week or so back, but then I get the feeling nothing a democrat does will be correct in his eyes.

 

You really are awful at misrepresenting what people say.

 

You asked why people might not like Hilary. I linked some of that back to Bill and her shared outlook.  You asked why anyone might not like Bill. I provided several reasons I think are legitimate criticisms of Bill Clinton's presidency and then I said...

 

"Many also place the blame for 9/11 with his 8 years in office and failure to neutralize Bin Laden rather than George Bush's 8 months."

 

Apart from the fact that this "failure" would be nothing to do with the rise of Al Qaeda, It's not even an opinion I endorsed.

[Renton 17841]

You really are awful at misrepresenting what people say.

 

You asked why people might not like Hilary. I linked some of that back to Bill and her shared outlook. You asked why anyone might not like Bill. I provided several reasons I think are legitimate criticisms of Bill Clinton's presidency and then I said...

 

"Many also place the blame for 9/11 with his 8 years in office and failure to neutralize Bin Laden rather than George Bush's 8 months."

 

Apart from the fact that this "failure" would be nothing to do with the rise of Al Qaeda, It's not even an opinion I endorsed.

I said it was an insinuation and I stand by that in the context of your constant exaggerated criticism of Obama and the Clintons. It was also a completely false accusation, in the sense that Bill Clinton was a very popular president. Even Trump said so.

[ewerk 26502]

Trump is really broadening his voter demographic with a guy dressed as a doctor (including stethoscope) and a 60 year old white woman holding 'Blacks for Trump' placard.

 

 

[Dr Gloom 19844]

the token black man. May as well have said "darkies for Trump"

[Rayvin 4964]

Pointless tagging. Are neoliberals worse than neoconservatives anyway?

 

Did you read the article that I posted a few days back that explained what Neoliberalism is and the problems it is responsible for...? At this point it's not so much 'liberalism' and 'conservatism' and more the prevailing ideology that the West lives by. Neoliberalism is fundamentally a backlash against the welfare state; it's about true competition in markets and the classification of all people as consumers.

 

It isn't directly comparable to Neoconservatism in the way we think of politics. You're thinking of this as a binary 'conservatives are on the right, liberals are on the left' issue. In reality, Neoconservatism is about interventionist foreign policy and a general support for Israel, predominantly. Neoliberalism is the general philosophy by which the West operates. Despite the terms, they're not comparable labels. Comparing them is the same as comparing Soviet foreign policy with Communism. Neoconservatives can and have been Neoliberals as well.

 

Reagan is generally considered to be a conservative president. He's also a leading Neoliberal, based on his economic policies. Thatcher was a Neoliberal. Blair was. These people believe in the market above all else. Opposition to Neoliberalism traditionally comes from the Tea Party right (or Brexit), and the Socialist Left (Corbyn and then some). the reason I keep harping on about it, is that this Neoliberalist ideology that we live under, is causing absolute mayhem with people's lives now. It's failures are giving us Brexit, Corbyn, Trump, the rise of the hard right in Europe, the annihilation of Greece, rampant wealth inequality, and so on. Neoconservatism has given us ISIS and terrorism, but they're directly tied to foreign policy.

[Dr Gloom 19844]

Did you read the article that I posted a few days back that explained what Neoliberalism is and the problems it is responsible for...? At this point it's not so much 'liberalism' and 'conservatism' and more the prevailing ideology that the West lives by. Neoliberalism is fundamentally a backlash against the welfare state; it's about true competition in markets and the classification of all people as consumers.

 

It isn't directly comparable to Neoconservatism in the way we think of politics. You're thinking of this as a binary 'conservatives are on the right, liberals are on the left' issue. In reality, Neoconservatism is about interventionist foreign policy and a general support for Israel, predominantly. Neoliberalism is the general philosophy by which the West operates. Despite the terms, they're not comparable labels. Comparing them is the same as comparing Soviet foreign policy with Communism. Neoconservatives can and have been Neoliberals as well.

 

Reagan is generally considered to be a conservative president. He's also a leading Neoliberal, based on his economic policies. Thatcher was a Neoliberal. Blair was. These people believe in the market above all else. Opposition to Neoliberalism traditionally comes from the Tea Party right (or Brexit), and the Socialist Left (Corbyn and then some). the reason I keep harping on about it, is that this Neoliberalist ideology that we live under, is causing absolute mayhem with people's lives now. It's failures are giving us Brexit, Corbyn, Trump, the rise of the hard right in Europe, the annihilation of Greece, rampant wealth inequality, and so on. Neoconservatism has given us ISIS and terrorism, but they're directly tied to foreign policy.

 

the tea party are all about free markets, non interventionism and small government - how is that a reaction to neoliberalism? the movement was revived amid growing resentment of obama in the early days of his adminstration for his fiscal stimulus package

[Rayvin 4964]

the tea party are all about free markets, non interventionism and small government - how is that a reaction to neoliberalism? the movement was revived amid growing resentment of obama in the early days of his adminstration for his fiscal stimulus package

 

Aye that's true - but the populist support it had was anti-establishment, which I was (lazily) pointing to. The Tea Party itself is Neoliberalism taken to its inevitable conclusion, but the populist support, I would argue, are simply anti-establishment - and the establishment is Neoliberal.

 

Take them out if you want, they weren't central to the point. Just lazy labelling on my part.

[adios 717]

 

I honestly don't. Bill Clinton presided over the period between Iraq 1 and Afghanistan/Iraq 2. I can't think of a significant conflict he was embroiled in.

Bosnia, or am I going mad?  A different class of war to Iraq 2 at least, but still a war.

[Rayvin 4964]

Bosnia, or am I going mad?  A different class of war to Iraq 2 at least, but still a war.

 

Wasn't that bombing? Bombing, ridiculously, doesn't count as 'war'.

[Alex 30474]

Wasn't that bombing? Bombing, ridiculously, doesn't count as 'war'.

Are you thinking of Serbia more recently?

[Rayvin 4964]

Maybe... fair enough if I'm wrong about this. Did the US have troops on the ground?

[Renton 17841]

Bosnia, or am I going mad? A different class of war to Iraq 2 at least, but still a war.

 

Hardly a war and also absolutely justified. UN led too iirc. Name me a US president since the war whose been less militarily interventionist.

[Rayvin 4964]

Hardly a war and also absolutely justified. UN led too iirc. Name me a US president since the war whose been less militarily interventionist.

 

That's Neoconservatism

[Renton 17841]

Not sure I get you. It's the US necons who bloke to kick the shit out the ME, yes.

[Rayvin 4964]

I was just referring back to my other point... That you can be both Neocon and Neoliberal because one is a foreign policy strategy and the other is the prevailing ideology in all Western countries. Bill Clinton was less Neocon than many other presidents, but all recent ones have been Neoliberal.

[Happy Face 29]

Hardly a war and also absolutely justified. UN led too iirc. Name me a US president since the war whose been less militarily interventionist.

 

Jimmy Carter...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/11/president-jimmy-carter-interview

 

on the other hand, Clinton...

 

1994 – Bosnia: U.S. Air Force F-16 jets shot down four of the six Bosnian Serb J-21 Jastreb single-seat light attack jets for violating UN-mandated no-fly zone.

 

1995 – Bosnia: Operation Deliberate Force, On August 30, 1995, U.S. and NATO aircraft began a major bombing campaign of Bosnian Serb Army in response to a Bosnian Serb mortar attack on a Sarajevo market that killed 37 people on August 28, 1995. This operation lasted until September 20, 1995. The air campaign along with a combined allied ground force of Muslim and Croatian Army against Serb positions led to a Dayton Agreement in December 1995 with the signing of warring factions of the war. As part of Operation Joint Endeavor, U.S. and NATO dispatched the Implementation Force (IFOR) peacekeepers to Bosnia to uphold the Dayton agreement.[RL30172]

 

1996 – Kuwait: Operation Desert Strike, American Air Strikes in the north to protect the Kurdish population against the Iraqi Army attacks.

 

1998 – Iraq: Operation Desert Fox, U.S. and British forces conduct a major four-day bombing campaign from December 16–19, 1998 on Iraqi targets.[RL30172]

 

1998 – Afghanistan and Sudan: Operation Infinite Reach. On August 20, President Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack against two suspected terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and a suspected chemical factory in Sudan.[RL30172]

 

1999 – Serbia: Operation Allied Force: U.S. and NATO aircraft began a major bombing of Serbia and Serb positions in Kosovo on March 24, 1999, during the Kosovo War due to the refusal by Serbian President Slobodan Milošević to end repression against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. This operation ended in June 10, 1999, when Milošević agreed to pull out his troops out of Kosovo. In response to the situation in Kosovo, NATO dispatched the KFOR peacekeepers to secure the peace under UNSC Resolution 1244.[RL30172]

[Rayvin 4964]

...or maybe he wasn't less of a Neocon...

[Howay 12462]

Trump is really broadening his voter demographic with a guy dressed as a doctor (including stethoscope) and a 60 year old white woman holding 'Blacks for Trump' placard.

 

 

iirc there's also pictures of white people holding signs that say "Hispanics for Trump" or something along those lines in Spanish which I'm pretty sure were also grammatically incorrect as well.