Vladimir Putin and Russia

[Christmas Tree 3997]

16 minutes ago, Tom said:

Here man you literally vote for & support the things oppressing them  

Utter bollocks

 

How is this Corbyns fault.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Christmas Tree

[spongebob toonpants 3606]

40 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

That is shite, yeah there was an early neo-nazi leaning government, it lost big style in later elections and now gets a tiny proportion of votes similar as the cunts do here. Current PM is Jewish FFS.

 

This Ukraine are nazi’s bollocks is a Russian construct, somewhat ironic give the neo-nazis in Russia. The separatism was also Russian fuelled.

Zelensky obviously isnt, they elected a TV star for goodness sake.

And its obviously bullshit from Putin to use it as an excuse but I mean some of the armed forces literally have Nazi symbols on their uniforms. They are  not exactly hiding it

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Edited February 25, 2022 by spongebob toonpants

[spongebob toonpants 3606]

From that article

 

Neo-Nazism

Emblem featuring a Wolfsangel and Black Sun, two symbols associated with Nazism

The Azov Battalion has been described as a far-right militia[33] with connections to neo-Nazism, with members wearing neo-Nazi and SS symbols and regalia and expressing neo-Nazi views.[76][77] The group's insignia features the Wolfsangel[52][78][77][79][80] and the Black Sun,[78][81][82] two neo-Nazi symbols.

Azov soldiers have been observed wearing Nazi-associated symbols on their uniforms.[83] In 2014, the German ZDF television network showed images of Azov fighters wearing helmets with swastika symbols and "the SS runes of Hitler's infamous black-uniformed elite corps".[84] In

[Monkeys Fist 38872]

I know I’m neither a military nor political expert, but I’m struggling to see how we in the West can just sit on our hands and watch this happen without helping? 
It seems almost inevitable to me that we will have to send military help, so why wait until the Russians are established in the country- do it now. 
It’s not like this has come out of the blue. 
 

( I know there are many reasons why we aren’t, but it just seems like we’re letting Putin piss all over everything here, when we could actually stop this fairly quickly and decisively). 

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Just now, Monkeys Fist said:

I know I’m neither a military nor political expert, but I’m struggling to see how we in the West can just sit on our hands and watch this happen without helping? 
It seems almost inevitable to me that we will have to send military help, so why wait until the Russians are established in the country- do it now. 
It’s not like this has come out of the blue. 
 

( I know there are many reasons why we aren’t, but it just seems like we’re letting Putin piss all over everything here, when we could actually stop this fairly quickly and decisively). 

Madman with 8,000 nukes. 

[Renton 17841]

Just now, Monkeys Fist said:

I know I’m neither a military nor political expert, but I’m struggling to see how we in the West can just sit on our hands and watch this happen without helping? 
It seems almost inevitable to me that we will have to send military help, so why wait until the Russians are established in the country- do it now. 
It’s not like this has come out of the blue. 
 

( I know there are many reasons why we aren’t, but it just seems like we’re letting Putin piss all over everything here, when we could actually stop this fairly quickly and decisively). 

 

Because for instance if we intervene with air power and a plane is shot down, that could trigger article 5 of NATO's constitution and ultimately result in full war. Which could escalate to nuclear war. It's fine to have the discussion as long as we know what the consequences are, but htose consequences could literally be the death of all of us. So far no western country wants to risk it. Do you? I'm honestly not sure. 

[Gemmill 34693]

 

 

[Ken 119]

2 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

From that article

 

Neo-Nazism

Emblem featuring a Wolfsangel and Black Sun, two symbols associated with Nazism

The Azov Battalion has been described as a far-right militia[33] with connections to neo-Nazism, with members wearing neo-Nazi and SS symbols and regalia and expressing neo-Nazi views.[76][77] The group's insignia features the Wolfsangel[52][78][77][79][80] and the Black Sun,[78][81][82] two neo-Nazi symbols.

Azov soldiers have been observed wearing Nazi-associated symbols on their uniforms.[83] In 2014, the German ZDF television network showed images of Azov fighters wearing helmets with swastika symbols and "the SS runes of Hitler's infamous black-uniformed elite corps".[84] In

Your point is made but Russia also have a large element of neo-nazism.

 

Not that this is a point regarding the Ukraine offensive that Russia initiated but they are the most racist country in Europe. This point is an aside and go look how black players have been treated playing in their league 

[spongebob toonpants 3606]

2 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

I know I’m neither a military nor political expert, but I’m struggling to see how we in the West can just sit on our hands and watch this happen without helping? 
It seems almost inevitable to me that we will have to send military help, so why wait until the Russians are established in the country- do it now. 
It’s not like this has come out of the blue. 
 

( I know there are many reasons why we aren’t, but it just seems like we’re letting Putin piss all over everything here, when we could actually stop this fairly quickly and decisively). 

I've gone from thinking there is no way we would see tanks in Kviv (nailed that one) to worrying that Putin is so unstable he might go nuclear. I ssume they just hope he gets bogged down in a never ending war that is contained

[Monkeys Fist 38872]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Because for instance if we intervene with air power and a plane is shot down, that could trigger article 5 of NATO's constitution and ultimately result in full war. Which could escalate to nuclear war. It's fine to have the discussion as long as we know what the consequences are, but htose consequences could literally be the death of all of us. So far no western country wants to risk it. Do you? I'm honestly not sure. 

I understand that, but if we let him get away with this, what next? 
At what point does the “fear” become detrimental to taking action where it’s clearly needed? 

[spongebob toonpants 3606]

1 minute ago, Ken said:

Your point is made but Russia also have a large element of neo-nazism.

 

Not that this is a point regarding the Ukraine offensive that Russia initiated but they are the most racist country in Europe. This point is an aside and go look how black players have been treated playing in their league 

Let's be honest it's rose over the whole region. I'm no way saying this to give any credit or support to Putin

[Ken 119]

5 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

I know I’m neither a military nor political expert, but I’m struggling to see how we in the West can just sit on our hands and watch this happen without helping? 
It seems almost inevitable to me that we will have to send military help, so why wait until the Russians are established in the country- do it now. 
It’s not like this has come out of the blue. 
 

( I know there are many reasons why we aren’t, but it just seems like we’re letting Putin piss all over everything here, when we could actually stop this fairly quickly and decisively). 

At this point NATO need to prepare for any incursion against their borders.

 

Too late for should have and could have arguments.

[Ken 119]

Just now, spongebob toonpants said:

Let's be honest it's rose over the whole region. I'm no way saying this to give any credit or support to Putin

I know you are not. I just made points. All good yeah

[PaddockLad 14645]

2 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

Madman with 8,000 nukes. 

 

If your happy for your kids to live in a Europe where most vital energy resources are controlled by a fascist dictator then that's fine.  MAD is a thing. He wants to be Vlad the Great, not the cunt who ended 4000 years of human civilisation . On that basis if I were NATO I'd be taking my fuckin chances and going in...he needs to be physically opposed immediately 

[Monkeys Fist 38872]

1 minute ago, Ken said:

At this point NATO need to prepare for any incursion against their borders.

 

Too late for should have and could have arguments.

The irony is that one of Putin’s stated reasons for invading was not wanting a NATO country on his border- if he succeeds in occupying Ukraine he’ll have increased the number of NATO countries on Russia’s borders, pissing all of them off in the process. 

[Christmas Tree 3997]

5 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

If your happy for your kids to live in a Europe where most vital energy resources are controlled by a fascist dictator then that's fine.  MAD is a thing. He wants to be Vlad the Great, not the cunt who ended 4000 years of human civilisation . On that basis if I were NATO I'd be taking my fuckin chances and going in...he needs to be physically opposed immediately 

Unless you are talking about invading Russia, I’m not sure how risking WW3 to turn Ukraine into a bloodbath would change the oil situation.

[Monkeys Fist 38872]

Lyse Doucet in Kyiv. 
 

Quote

Unthinkable. Unfathomable.

Many said it couldn’t, wouldn’t, happen. Not in 2022.

For weeks, Western officials analysing the intelligence warned of President Putin’s plan to take Kyiv.

For weeks, I’ve asked Ukrainians in Kyiv about it, and ran it past every foreign and defence minister, every Russia watcher, I met at last weekend’s security conference in Munich.

It just didn’t make sense. Just didn’t add up.

And now, with every hour, Russian forces and fighting come ever closer to Kyiv, the capital.

“This night, a Russian plane was hit right in front of the windows of my house in Kyiv. This is insane,” Ukrainian editor Katerina Sergatskova posted on social media.

A city where Ukrainians tell all of us to “call it Kyiv in Ukrainian, not Kiev in Russian” - a city which feels so European - is now in Moscow’s sights.

“A failure of imagination" is how former British intelligence chief Sir Alex Younger described it, adding "we thought history had changed in 1991” when the Soviet empire collapsed.

A failure too of diplomacy, the threat of sanctions, and our much-vaunted “rules-based international order” which are all too often broken.

Ukrainians taking cover in Kyiv bomb shelters and metro stations as emergency sirens sound, taking to the road to flee for safer cities, or taking up guns, are now imagining the worst. 

And it is all too real now.

 

[Rayvin 4964]

I've read some people saying that Ukraine isn't faring as badly as it seems - they're engaging in asymmetric warfare which effectively means they've recognised they're the weaker player and have ceded ground with only light resistance (which does map against the number of casualties being quite low). This means the likelihood is that the Russians take Kyiv, which is a sad day indeed, but from that point on they're going to have absolute hell on their hands.

 

I suspect Putin would have preferred that Ukraine met him head on, but that doesn't appear to be what's happening. So either Ukraine is about to give up without much of a fight at all, or they're preparing for a long and protracted fight.

[Renton 17841]

6 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

I understand that, but if we let him get away with this, what next? 
At what point does the “fear” become detrimental to taking action where it’s clearly needed? 

 

I guess occupation of Ukraine and Russia getting bogged down with a guerrilla war and sanctions. Shit for people of Ukraine (see Meenzer), but seems preferable to Armageddon to me. The red line is him attacking a NATO country, if that happens, yes, even North Macedonia, it's WW3. He knows this so if it happens it proves he is suicidal and wants to take the world with him. Not much we can do in that situation except hope he is taken out from within I guess. 

[Renton 17841]

8 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

If your happy for your kids to live in a Europe where most vital energy resources are controlled by a fascist dictator then that's fine.  MAD is a thing. He wants to be Vlad the Great, not the cunt who ended 4000 years of human civilisation . On that basis if I were NATO I'd be taking my fuckin chances and going in...he needs to be physically opposed immediately 

 

How sure are you about this? Even yesterday he was positively fuming saying any opposition will face consequences "the world has never seen". What did he mean by that? But also, it doesn't take into account accidental escalation. That's the real threat imo.

[Rayvin 4964]

Some commentators are saying Putin's grasp of reality has slipped altogether now, so on that basis we probably can't rely on him being a rational actor. I don't know if it's true though, this all seems very calculated to me.

[Renton 17841]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I've read some people saying that Ukraine isn't faring as badly as it seems - they're engaging in asymmetric warfare which effectively means they've recognised they're the weaker player and have ceded ground with only light resistance (which does map against the number of casualties being quite low). This means the likelihood is that the Russians take Kyiv, which is a sad day indeed, but from that point on they're going to have absolute hell on their hands.

 

I suspect Putin would have preferred that Ukraine met him head on, but that doesn't appear to be what's happening. So either Ukraine is about to give up without much of a fight at all, or they're preparing for a long and protracted fight.

 

A lot of Ukraine's military is on the Eastern border though and Putin has just gone round it, much like Hitler did going through Benelux during the Blitzkrieg. If Kiev goes, then surely the head of government also goes? Is Zelenskyy still in the city? 

[spongebob toonpants 3606]

Our best hope is he is taken out from within, sadly that seems very unlikely

[Ken 119]

12 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

The irony is that one of Putin’s stated reasons for invading was not wanting a NATO country on his border- if he succeeds in occupying Ukraine he’ll have increased the number of NATO countries on Russia’s borders, pissing all of them off in the process. 

He has a buffer zone in his mind. Nobody knows what that is even his own govt dont know. 

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

A lot of Ukraine's military is on the Eastern border though and Putin has just gone round it, much like Hitler did going through Benelux during the Blitzkrieg. If Kiev goes, then surely the head of government also goes? Is Zelenskyy still in the city? 

 

He is, he's refused to leave as I understand it. Much will depend on whether the government can remain functional in some form or another, or how well the chain of command is preserved.