Rayvin

We do?!

Incidentally, the other solution to the issue is what is in the ascendency - the far right.

Corbyn isn't hard left. But yes, between the two would still be better than nothing. That said, actually, as I said the other day - it's not necessarily about how left wing the government is. You could have a centrist reformer who understood and tackled these problems, and they'd be vote worthy in my book. The entire system needs steady evolution to something sustainable. Unless you think that the constant drive to maximise profits is going to pay any attention to how many people are out of work once we have a fully automated workforce.

Agreed, it probably can. That's what I feel like I'm voting for. What we have on offer at the moment though, and indeed at the previous GE, was/is something that the majority wouldn't vote for. Actually, I think our whole disagreement can be boiled down to the following: We want ultimately the same basic thing, which you think the Blairite centre left can provide, and I don't (based solely on the fact that they're culpable in bringing us to this point). That genuinely seems to be our only point of contention for all your imagining of me as some kind of communist. I have offered a solution btw, I 'suggested' a government that wasn't wedded to the Thatcherite notions of how society should be run. Granted it seems that the current iteration of this suggestion isn't sufficiently competent to make it work/get into power in the first place, but realistically there's no alternative if you believe, as I do, that the Blairites haven't actually understood what is going on. If they get back into power, the whole steady descent continues. Granted, not as quickly as under the Tories.

I genuinely don't think you read half my posts, as I feel like I have to keep re-answering the same questions. I do not want to abandon capitalism. I do not want to go from one extreme to another. I do not have an personal ideological driver behind my views. I do believe that the ideology we operate around has failed and is continuing to fail. I believe the evidence of this is apparent when looking at the number of people being left behind and how they are now voting. I believe they will continue to vote far right until meaningful change can be offered to them. I do not believe Neoliberalism has any mechanism for delivering this change, nor do those who run the world consider it important to do so. I believe that my life is going to be periodically fucked about with by extreme voting outcomes due to this issue. Otherwise, ideologically and politically, your position and my own are the same. The only difference is that I don't believe what we previously considered ideal is working. No I can't suggest another country using any improved version of the system but ffs, we didn't climb out of the primordial soup straight into the free market. If we go back to the centre left as it is now, we are going to keep re-running the past two years. I do not want this. That is the sole, single reason for my views.

Aye I think one of the reasons they're taking this hard is that almost everything they said last season is now going to bite them. They can't look for positives in going down cos they hammered us for doing so, and they now have to match our season and get promoted. Haven't seen ILDC in ages, curiously...

It is, yes. It's also the only thing holding Europe together though. And also, it's far less so than the UK is. A much lesser form of the same issue.

I can't quite believe how even it was at the first round given this result, but I suppose all three other candidates voters were unlikely to turn out for Le Pen. That's the Eu stabilized then. Good.

Aye tbf, I think some of us would be in meltdown if we'd thrown this away as they have.

Thank fuck for Rafa, eh?

I'm sure the mackems aren't loving it like.

On their forum, they sound absolutely gutted. I'm sure it'll pass like but

Don't believe that like. Mental.

Come on Villa, for once in your lives, actually do us a favour.

You're kidding No fucking way man.

This league has been us vs the refs with everyone else as just background noise.

Aye that would appear to be that.

If that's walking the line in terms of the use of that word, I'd hate to see crossing it

The truth appears to be a scary thing these days... Media shut out on it is interesting. Will that work?

Aside from this ongoing nonsense about an ideology that no one cares about, none of this makes any difference any more anyway. We aren't going to get either my leftwing political shift, or your centrist level headed one. We've got rightwing populism. The yanks have it too. The French are far closer to it than they should be. My views aside, how does the centre left solve the populist problem?

Actually, to be honest, my thinking was that I'd set that out, and you'd conclude that you weren't Neoliberal, and we've move on with our lives in agreement that Neoliberalism is a bad thing. It's not the same as free market capitalism - it was conceived as such, but no longer is. It was hijacked by big business and is perpetuated by our political system and leaders. We continuously vote for parties that endorse this basic position, and therefore undermine any hope of actually tackling the main challenges of our time, including wealth inequality and the ever increasing number of people left behind by globalisation. The moment anyone in the main centrist parties gives an honest fuck about this, is the moment they have my vote. The reality though, is that they're all short termist. They all only think in 5 year blocks. The future is the next government's problem. And unfortunately, voters behave in the same way. My position on Corbyn is based on taking a long term view. You just want the Tories out asap. So again - the reason I set that out, was in the hope that you'd realise we're in broad agreement on Neoliberalism being bad/unsustainable. If we move to free market capitalism that's fine with me. It's better than this. EDIT - just to make it clearer, the whole thing was sold to us by Thatcher. If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about it, I don't know what will.

Because I harp on about it so much, it's now cemented in your head though. It was previously an almost nameless force that seemed to govern everything in our society. But look, if it helps I'll start calling it the rationale behind the privatisation of state assets, maximization of profits, and conversion of human beings into consumers in a Darwinian style survival of the most competitive (save for those at the top of the system who survive either way). I do want to make a point that might make me sound less 'delusional' though - if we could get away with sustained centre left governments without any swing to right wing populism as a consequence, I'd take it.

This is true, but Labour's groups are now separate. Half are Neolibs like Renton and the other half are those left behind by the same people. That half are going for the far right. I mean look, I don't think all this stuff cos I'm an idealist. If we could go back to Blair winning and things being great for the middle classes i'd be all for it. But the reality is that our complacency has wrought absolute mayhem. Going back to what brought us to that just can't be the answer.

Agreed on the several hundred thousand, but when you factor in the now Tory working class, I think they've lost millions. People like me don't matter, I'm well aware of this But they don't understand the extent to which they've lost the working class, and that's the worry. They've learned absolutely fuck all from what brought them to this point.