Rayvin

You mean the racism element? Well yes I was assuming that this wasn't the official reason though

You can put money on this stuff right? Safest bet of my life.

I'm not totally clear on what Harry is meant to have done to warrant being cut off particularly, other than offending the Daily Mail in some form or another - but beyond that I think they should (but won't) skip Charles altogether. He's too old ffs. It'll be interesting to have to change the lyrics to the anthem. Not that I can sing it anyway since the idea of holding one person over and above everyone else is repellent and an anachronism

I mean, it's in the post I think. Have to admit a certain amount of trepidation about what happens when she does pass, as much as I remain a staunch republican.

You'd be doing the world a favour. Originally a Lib Dem until he realised he could make more money as a Tory iirc. He's the personification of the concept of 'loathsome'.

Tbf I was a little surprised I went off so hard on this bit, but I remember now just how fucking angry I was back then at what was happening, and how utterly voiceless and powerless I felt to do anything about it. For all I get worked up about Brexit, austerity will always be my original fucking gripe

I noticed Grimes tweeted that he thought Starmer was a huge hypocrite but he didn't think this was a good use of Durham constabulary's time. They know they've fucked this one up IMO.

I blame the unions for a great deal, believe me. To me this one isn't over dramatic. The collapse of resistance to austerity, that surrendering of the narrative could be blamed for everything from Corbyn through to Brexit, Johnson to the pandemic response. The idea that we needed to stop spending in order to recover is responsible for so fucking many issues in this country, in my opinion, that it is frankly up as an unforgiveable sin as far as I'm concerned.

Good for him, nice to see some integrity if nothing else.

I mean, we're talking about the fallout from Brown, the Milliband years and the eventual collapse of common decency within Labour that led to their shameful vote on, I believe, a welfare bill to 'keep up appearances on austerity'. That was them taking an axe to New Labour and that was when they needed a firm fucking shake. Which they got. I am more than happy to agree that Corbyn was a disaster in hindsight but I'm not having this idea that centrist Labour didn't cause, stoke and deliver that issue themselves. They were a zombie party that believed in nothing and betrayed most of its principles as part of an existential crisis that it never recovered from as a result of compromising half the things it believed in just to win power. In fact, the more I think about this the more concerned I am about where we are at present.

In fact, you could argue that they were the first ones to take an axe to all the good work they did under Blair. All because they didn't have the fucking stones to stand up and tell people the truth and felt the need to pander to fucking muppets. Which is, I note, where we are once again.

They supported austerity and surrendered the narrative on Labour being economically competent in the process, thus setting us back what will likely be two decades of economic progress by telling the public that the party whose approach to the economy is slash and burn with a dose of corruption, actually had the right of it. In so doing they actually created Corbyn's movement. That complete betrayal of not just their principles but also fucking reality is what gave his entire platform the impetus it needed.

I think Labour under Corbyn really did try for power, mind. I also don't think there's a black and white view of this, the centrists in Labour have done plenty of harm to your espoused objective themselves. No one in Labour came out of the Corbyn fiasco looking good, there was plenty of shit to go around.

Honestly I broadly agree but we are never going to win. We've been defeated utterly and there's just no point in trying to fight the big battles anymore. Best we can do is hope to win a policy here or there.

I don't even have one setup. Went the same way as my TV license, relics of a bygone age.

Corbyn absolutely should have had a different platform, I fully agree with this. And you're right, PR would permit a far more balanced breakdown of views and less risk of extremist positions taking the floor. Let's not forget that the Tories suffered basically the same thing in Brexit - they were taken over by a pack of far right lunatics who remain in power even now. As much as we need Labour to move on from Corbyn, it's already ahead of the Tories in this respect who haven't even confronted their equivalent problem yet. But yes, Labour is a centre left platform and should remain such. Corbyn and the hard left (and I might well follow them) should have their own platform. It needs PR for this to happen though.

I could fully believe it was leaked by a disgruntled Corbynite given everything that went on from the centrist wing during the Corbyn years. That said, if that is the case, it's as fucking stupid a thing to do now as it was then. It's supposed to be a united political party ffs, it cannot continue on with the self harm. That is actually one decent thing Starmer has managed to do at least, he has seemingly moved the party on somewhat from all the acrimony of his first year. Unless it's all still there and we're just hearing less about it now thanks to all the bigger global events I suppose. I struggle to imagine his successor will have the same sorts of problems to resolve, so that's a plus at the very least.

I think they thought they could call his bluff and prove that deep down, all politicians are the same. He needs to stick to his guns on this now, leave the public in no doubt who the liars are.

Beyond just electoral reform, I would love to see a political party of any stripe concern itself with long term planning for the future. I know it's not a vote winner in the here and now, but as a society it's completely what we should be trying to keep in focus. Climate change is a very obvious example of something that needs more serious effort than it has received, but I am constantly angered by that example of Rishi Sunak denying the Education department £15bn to help those children who have fallen behind under the pandemic, despite being told that the cost of not providing it was something like £300bn in the longer term. "Not my problem" needs removing from all political mentalities.

I suppose I accept it too in a way - I don't think we'll rejoin the EU short of some incredible event like a full scale invasion of the continent by Russia - I'm just not prepared to pretend it's not actively fucking us so that the blind can sleep better at night. That's a good point you make though about England being alone and surrounded by the EU though, who knows the impact of that over time. If we don't get electoral reform before Scotland goes, I don't think we'll ever get it. Frankly I don't think we'll get any left of centre party in power again should that happen.

Although as I've said before, if they put electoral reform back on the radar then that would motivate me to cross the line.

I think at this point I wouldn't say I want Labour to change like some kind of hostile takeover, I simply have to stand apart from them so that they understand the consequence of what they have chosen, in the hope that one day, that is sufficient to form part of a wider conversation about how we move back to sanity. By endorsing their current policies on Brexit, all I am telling them is that they can take my vote for granted while wooing the feckless. They can't take my vote for granted, and that message is sent even if I'm completely irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. They ceased to be 'my party' at that moment, and are now simply the 'better than the Tories' party. They can change, or not, if they like.

I think that's a fair assessment. And yes, it's a truly dismal state of affairs.

Do you mean me specifically? I know I'm not getting what I want, I said as much several posts back. This discussion isn't about Europe on my end, Labour aren't ready to tackle that issue because they still believe that they can create a broad church between racist halfwits and urban intellectuals. The labour front bench is indeed bereft but I'm far more confident that the centre left has a higher number of credible up and comers than the Tories do. And I think mentoring them in could be something Cooper, or someone like her, could achieve.

I'm going to stress incidentally that in my view, even if Starmer has broken the rules (which as far as I can tell he has not), it still wouldn't be as bad as the man who wrote and signed off on the damn rules breaching them. That's not how it'll play out though.