Renton

Wasn't part of the Saudi accord for them to recognise Israel as a country with a right to exist? I think you mentioned at the start, a possible trigger for this mess. I hope that somehow goes ahead in the not too distant future.

But Hamas are also the government of Gaza aren't they? This is what happens when you get the worst possible representation in your country, on both sides. Sprinkle in years of oppression and desensitisation, a belief in martyrdom and a callous disregard for human life (I mean who cares when you're going to paradise?), all the ingredients for the powder keg are there, just took a match. Those people in South Gaza who need to evacuate, they aren't ever going back, are they? I was reading as well that 50% of the population of Gaza are children. That's a million refugees right there many of whom will be radicalised and will form the next generation of Hamas or whatever hydra's head pops up. On the other hand, how can Israel ever be at peace with a group whose stated aim is its extinction? Hamas has to go, there has to be some humanity, and the cycle has to be broken. Not going to happen though is it?

It's baltently obviuous they copied our "template". Right down to turning to shit on the field, although of course, they had to take that another level. We even gifted them their proper nick name. You didn't here it much before '92 imo.

It's odd, I didn't think you chose your nick name, it usually evolves organically from what other peole call you. They are the most plastic club going ironically.

Also true to say I think, if the boot were on the other foot and Hamas had acces to this military power, thye would be completely merciless.

I don't really disagree. I do think maybe there is a qualitative difference to the brutality and methods used in this attack by Hamas. Executing children in the way that has been alleged promotes a visceral response. The question I ask myself, presuming this is true (and the audio I heard certainly seemed to be), is did Hamas do this because they are desensitised psychopaths, or did they do it deliberatley in order to provoke the extreme response by Israel we are witnessing? Or could it be both? Dropping bombs, shooting people in conflict, civilians dying as collateral damage, is detached, it feels different. But the end result is very similar in terms of the hate and vacuum it leaves in a familys life and the next round of violence. Hamas knew this, but did this anyway, presumably on purpose. In a way, they have done this to their own people. They could rerlease the hostages, after all, then the moral burden would be shifted to Israel. Why won't they?

Heard a clip on the radio a father had just heard his missing 8 year old daughter had been found. He cried with joy. Hold on I thought, what did "found" mean? She was found dead. Here's the thing, he knew this, but was relieved for her because the alternative was worse. And I got that. This was no ordinary terrorist act, you can't understate the profound effect this will have had on Israel's psyche. Like all of us I'm in despair but I'll not be too quick to judge the retaliation, which will be disproportionate in terms of numbers but not savagery.

On a lighter note, whilst we're contemplating changes to SJP probably running up to hundreds of millions in costs. there's another thread there on SoL ground improvements. This one may need a feasibility study.

Dunno, although I hope the guilt you must feel for bullying Patrokles has disippated over the last 15 years.

Very possible the second point like. How quickly can any country mobilise hundreds of thousands of tropos and make a planned land invasion the likes of which hasn't been seen since Stalingrad? Also prolonging the siege buys time and weakens Hamas. Although I still do remember with a salty tear in my eye the day we mobilsed the task force to free the Falklands.

It's like inception. Layers of power seperated from direct conflict through proxy wars. United states/EU/NATO > Ukraine/Israel China > Russia > Iran > Hamas/Hezbollah/Houthi Etc. Or maybe this is Parky bullshit and things are a bit simpler. Hamas has its own agency. Funded by Iran yes, but independent. They acted more like ISIS than anything else.

Some of the shit these mackems come up with, just as well the thread is hidden. 1) ISIS were not backed by Saudi, this a gross lie. The opposite is true, Saudi prevented its population joining ISIS and militarily opposed it. 2) It's true Saudi nationals were the modal group behind 9/11. By the same token, since the 7/7 bombers were all from the UK, I guess that makes us all terrorists. Or perhaps this mackem is a racist cunt. 3) Yes, the Saudi government would deny involvement, especially as they weren't involved. But an investigation has shownthey weren't involved and there is literally no motive. Perhaps this mackem is a racist cunt. I've said lots of times, there is plenty to criticise the Saudi government on, yet these brain dead morons prefer to perpetrate outright lies.

Russian soldiers are/were either professionals, mercenaries, conscripts, or criminals with a promise of release on service. Ukrainian male adults were not allowed to leave the country. Many of these soldiers are incredibly brave, especially on the Ukrainian side, I salute them. None of them will entertain suicide though.

I mean, ultimately its all tribal in one way or another. But what I am keen to point out here is that in this case it is very much about religion. Why? Because there is almost no other instrument that can brainwash people to undertake such acts of barbarism and self destruction. You won't get me to die for my country. There are millions of arabs who will die for their religion, and some crave it. Edit: btw, having posted this, I will bow out now. I appreciate how sensitive this is to people, working with both jewish and muslim people and also on this board. Of course that's another facet of it, censorship or in my case self-censorship. The last thing I will say though is, imo, there will never be peace in the Middle East as long as Religion is present.

But why because not all wars are religious does that mean none are? Religion IS culture in this context. The true motivations of Putin though are much les transparent to me, but he is the sole cause of that conflict (agreed its not religious).

HIs Andy Capp avatar probably didn't help. I mean, I still imagine Alex as James Dean when I know for a fact that is a million miles away from the truth. And Gloom is a 1980s Barry Venison.

From what we know, the Hamas terroists/militants whatever did what they did in the promise of paradise in the afterlife. Take away that, the current situation doesn't happen. I'm not saying all wars are motivated by religion, but many are. Either between faiths, or within faiths. This war is not just between Judaism and Islam, but also a proxy for Sunni vs. Shiite. In the case of the Middle East, it is all about interpretation of ancient books and bloodlines, it's pathetic. And here the most significant war on our soil in recent times was also sectarian. You might argue we'd be fighting about something else in a parallel universe. I don't know about that, but for me, I'm not letting religion off the hook. It is responsible for most of the evil in our lives imo.

Well, considering the Hamas terrorists were basically suicide "martyrs" I'd say it was massively motivated by religion, Not you in particular, but why do people try to minimise the impact of religion here? It's ALL about religion in the end.

I'm pondering whether to set the underfloor heating in the bathroom on a timer for the first time. Amazing. On a slightly more interesting note, we had EDF come out for the NINTH time trying to fix the gas smart meter yesterday. Couldn't fix it again, the bloke just shrugged and said he'd be out again next month to not fix it. Its common place apparently, about 50% of smart meters don't work.

Never knew why either stopped posting. Glad the grey man is okay, hope he still has a fabulous taste in shoes; also hope HF is well too. Must be nearly a decade gone by.

The cynic in me thought this may be because the conservatives are best placed to win this seat next time, but that doesn't seem to be the case. She's a clinical psychologist as well, she needs her head examined.

Yeah, on reflection, you might be right, dunno where I got the one footed thing from. Just looking at his stats there, he only played 13 games for us (4 goals), so not much ot go on considering it was 7 years ago.

Think ALmiron has much more to his game personally but the one footedness is similar. Anyway, I wish him well.

Most one dimensional player I have ever seen but it was one hell of a one dimension.

You know, people have a habit of sometimes reading the last post on a thread first, meaning it lacks wider context. And you wonder why you're getting this reputation.