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[essembeeofsunderland 811]

Where are Thimon Graythonth eyebrowth? Ith Ian Dowie hith dad?

[Tdansmith 2126]

9 minutes ago, essembeeofsunderland said:

Where are Thimon Graythonth eyebrowth? Ith Ian Dowie hith dad?

Can I have a pint of what you're drinking mate 

[ewerk 26441]

You really don't want any of that.

[Dr Gloom 19837]

12 hours ago, essembeeofsunderland said:

Gobiadini on Total Sport tonight.Criticising the fans for booing and not backing the team 100% after admitting he hasn't watched the full game yet and he regularly leaves games early,when he makes his infrequent visit to the sos on a freebie.

 

I'm pretty sure he didn't say that last bit

[The Fish 9008]

6 hours ago, Howay said:

Aye that about sums it up Fish. 

They're hilarious mind. 20th ffs  how fucking shite are they, they got battered at home to Sheffield Utd (not on scoreline but on performance). I hope Burton Albion give them a right hiding.

I genuinely hope they go down to league one. I think there's a good chance they will as I can't see that dick head Short coughing up the money to fuck Grayson ( still find it hilarious that no mark is their manager, and they STILL try and have pops that Rafa Benitez is our manager!) off. If he did sack Grayson, where do They go from there? Vanarama Conference North managers?

 

I reckon they'll comfortably stay up, they have a few players missing through injury don't they? There's too much shit in that league for them to go down imo. Bolton and Brentford are 6 games in and yet to win a game and I'd expect Birmingham to continue struggling too.

 

If they sack Grayson they'll pursue someone like Pearson, but I can't imagine there's a lot of money to play with and that will put off most decent managers. Moyes and McInnes walked away after seeing the budgetary constraints, didn't they? 

[Rayvin 4964]

46 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

I reckon they'll comfortably stay up, they have a few players missing through injury don't they? There's too much shit in that league for them to go down imo. Bolton and Brentford are 6 games in and yet to win a game and I'd expect Birmingham to continue struggling too.

 

If they sack Grayson they'll pursue someone like Pearson, but I can't imagine there's a lot of money to play with and that will put off most decent managers. Moyes and McInnes walked away after seeing the budgetary constraints, didn't they? 

 

Aye but you're assuming here that they don't enter administration. They'll not go down on merit but it's possible on financial ineptitude.

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

Last week on Total Sport the makem pundit was  ex-player Martin Smith who also played for Sheffield Utd.He said he'd played for SUFC  at SJP,got loads of stick,but scored,so he was happy.It was pointed out that his team were beaten 4-1.' I wasn't bothered about the score because I'd scored'.That's your makem for you.

[The Fish 9008]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

Aye but you're assuming here that they don't enter administration. They'll not go down on merit but it's possible on financial ineptitude.

 

I don't know enough about their finances, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a route available to billionaire Ellis Short that allowed SAFC to avoid administration.

[Rayvin 4964]

Just now, The Fish said:

 

I don't know enough about their finances, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a route available to billionaire Ellis Short that allowed SAFC to avoid administration.

 

I think that's because we view administration as the absolute last thing any owner would want to happen. If Short doesn't want to put more money in, why wouldn't he let it go under? Unless he can find funding externally.

 

Having said this, I don't consider it likely either, beyond the fact that a lot of chatter on rtg seems to be focusing on it. Moreover, I think it's FFP that's actually due to fuck them over.

[The Fish 9008]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think that's because we view administration as the absolute last thing any owner would want to happen. If Short doesn't want to put more money in, why wouldn't he let it go under? Unless he can find funding externally.

 

Having said this, I don't consider it likely either, beyond the fact that a lot of chatter on rtg seems to be focusing on it. Moreover, I think it's FFP that's actually due to fuck them over.

 

Wouldn't it be harder to unload SAFC were they in Administration and in danger of relegation to League 2, than it would be if they were comfortably safe? What's the cost of a club like Sunderland AFC getting relegated to the 3rd tier? Not just the initial financial hit, but the damage to reputation and so on. Have clubs like Leeds, Bolton, Portsmouth ever really recovered? 

 

Say, for arguments sake, Short puts in £20m to keep the club from entering administration, accepting that that would mean falling foul of FFP and incurring a £5m fine and a points deduction next season (I don’t think the punishment would be that rough btw), surely that’s a price worth paying? He could simply value the club as its current value +  £25m cost of keeping them afloat?

 

I dunno, without knowing how deep the hole they’re in is, it’s tough to guess at a plan to get them out of it. 
 

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

Wouldn't it be harder to unload SAFC were they in Administration and in danger of relegation to League 2, than it would be if they were comfortably safe? What's the cost of a club like Sunderland AFC getting relegated to the 3rd tier? Not just the initial financial hit, but the damage to reputation and so on. Have clubs like Leeds, Bolton, Portsmouth ever really recovered? 

 

Say, for arguments sake, Short puts in £20m to keep the club from entering administration, accepting that that would mean falling foul of FFP and incurring a £5m fine and a points deduction next season (I don’t think the punishment would be that rough btw), surely that’s a price worth paying? He could simply value the club as its current value +  £25m cost of keeping them afloat?

 

I dunno, without knowing how deep the hole they’re in is, it’s tough to guess at a plan to get them out of it. 
 

 

I don't know. You've mentioned putting £20m in but what if it needs more than that? What if Short doesn't have the liquid assets in the same way Ashley doesn't?

 

All I know is that rtg seems spooked by it all of a sudden, and that they spent £1.25m this summer. Which is bobbins.

[The Fish 9008]

Just now, Rayvin said:

 

I don't know. You've mentioned putting £20m in but what if it needs more than that? What if Short doesn't have the liquid assets in the same way Ashley doesn't?

 

All I know is that rtg seems spooked by it all of a sudden, and that they spent £1.25m this summer. Which is bobbins.

 

If Short doesn't have access to liquid assets in the same way as Ashley "doesn't", then they're fine.

 

The rumoured debt was around £100m, wasn't it? This summer they spent buttons, but have recouped about £30m in player sales didn’t they? they've still got the parachute payments coming their way as well. So how much would he need to personally commit, to keep the wolves from the door?

 

I think RTG is spooked by it because misery loves company. When shit is bad on the pitch, any travails off the pitch gain importance. Guarantee if they were sitting at the top of the league there wouldn’t be as many worried about administration. 

[ewerk 26441]

They owe about £70m to external parties. Probably more than that to Short.

 

Their wages are likely going to be more than 100% of income this season. They're set to make a huge financial loss.

 

Putting them into administration could well be the best move for Short.

[David Kelly 1117]

I read a couple of them say the result against Norwich was a complete fluke.  They'd be bottom two had it not been for that.

 

I always thought it would take a lot to turn them around.  They have been losing for a decade with only wins against us and last gasp escapes from relegation to keep them going. It took a manager of Rafa's calibre to turn us around after two and half seasons of losing and we still took a couple of games where it looked like nothing was improving before we got going.  They have some shite but they also have players that should be comfortably good enough to have them in the top half of that league if they stay fit and interested (in the cases of Cattermole and Kone), but the whole mentality of club needs changing.  Everything is wrong with them (owner, players, fans) and it's going to take a lot to lift them out of the mess they're in.

[The Fish 9008]

8 minutes ago, ewerk said:

They owe about £70m to external parties. Probably more than that to Short.

 

Their wages are likely going to be more than 100% of income this season. They're set to make a huge financial loss.

 

Putting them into administration could well be the best move for Short.

 

What happens to his ownership of Sunderland should they enter administration? Do the administrators get involved with looking for external financial help? Or are they solely interested in cutting costs and raising funds by selling assets?

[Rayvin 4964]

I would have thought the latter since presumably the club would exhaust all outside funding options open to it well before this happens. But they're no guarantee to go back up by any stretch, and if what ewerk says about their wages is true, how would any lender be able to look at that and decided that yes, they're a safe investment.

 

Do they have £70m worth of assets though, I wonder.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Rayvin

[The Fish 9008]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I would have thought the latter since presumably the club would exhaust all outside funding options open to it well before this happens. But they're no guarantee to go back up by any stretch, and if what ewerk says about their wages is true, how would any lender be able to look at that and decided that yes, they're a safe investment.

 

Do they have £70m worth of assets though, I wonder.

 

Do they own their own stadium?

[Alex 30450]

Incredible what Everton paid for Pickford when you consider the bargaining power they had relative to Sunderland's financial state.

[Rayvin 4964]

Don't know about the stadium. You'd think so. That said, how grim would it be if all this came to pass? It's not just the debt either, it's the ongoing lack of sustainable operation. Not only would they need to find £70m, but they'd need to scale back the playing team even further.

 

I mean look, maybe you're right and this isn't on the immediate horizon, but at some point this is going to happen unless they can get bought or downgrade the playing staff to something in keeping with their means.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Rayvin

[Leon 13]

25 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

Do they own their own stadium?

Does that belong to SAFC or Short?  If it's Shorts or one of Shorts companies then a bust Sunderland could see the land literally sold from under them as Sort recoups his investment.  This being the property stripping model which help make his fortune.

[The Fish 9008]

25 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Don't know about the stadium. You'd think so. That said, how grim would it be if all this came to pass? It's not just the debt either, it's the ongoing lack of sustainable operation. Not only would they need to find £70m, but they'd need to scale back the playing team even further.

 

I mean look, maybe you're right and this isn't on the immediate horizon, but at some point this is going to happen unless they can get bought or downgrade the playing staff to something in keeping with their means.

 

That's the biggest concern for them. Whether it's to avoid administration, or as a result of it, should they need to dump things like their best players, their academy, their stadium etc. The club that remains will face an arduous road back to the Premier League. Portsmouth had to dump everything and they not only look miles away from the top flight, but the clubs around them (Southampton, Bournemouth) have benefited by poaching their youth prospects.

[ewerk 26441]

40 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

What happens to his ownership of Sunderland should they enter administration? Do the administrators get involved with looking for external financial help? Or are they solely interested in cutting costs and raising funds by selling assets?

 

They'll decide whether it's worth saving or not. They'll more than likely reach an agreement with creditors that sees them receive a small percentage of the money owed to them. Sunderland's problem is their ongoing costs and I don't believe that the players' contracts will be affected by administration. In 15/16 their wage bill was around 77% of turnover. Last summer they added quite a few players who would most likely be on big money. The trouble is that they've gotten rid of only a few high earners and now they're faced with a vastly reduced income for at least this season.

 

The only way they'll survive is if Short keeps on funding them and he has to ask himself whether it's worth throwing good money after bad. Otherwise they're out of options.

[The Fish 9008]

11 minutes ago, Leon said:

Does that belong to SAFC or Short?  If it's Shorts or one of Shorts companies then a bust Sunderland could see the land literally sold from under them as Sort recoups his investment.  This being the property stripping model which help make his fortune.

No idea, but you're right, Short may look to sell that stadium under their feet to cover his own losses.

[ewerk 26441]

Just now, The Fish said:

 

That's the biggest concern for them. Whether it's to avoid administration, or as a result of it, should they need to dump things like their best players, their academy, their stadium etc. The club that remains will face an arduous road back to the Premier League. Portsmouth had to dump everything and they not only look miles away from the top flight, but the clubs around them (Southampton, Bournemouth) have benefited by poaching their youth prospects.

 

They don't have anyone really worth selling, not on the wages they're on. Their stadium is only really of value if it is being used for football and obviously the only club who will use it is SAFC. It could be knocked down for housing (I assume, I'm not familiar with the area) but that would see it sold for a reasonably low price. They basically have no assets of significant value when compared to their debt.

[Rayvin 4964]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

They don't have anyone really worth selling, not on the wages they're on. Their stadium is only really of value if it is being used for football and obviously the only club who will use it is SAFC. It could be knocked down for housing (I assume, I'm not familiar with the area) but that would see it sold for a reasonably low price. They basically have no assets of significant value when compared to their debt.

 

Knocked down for housing that's fucking cold man.

 

Surely it's not that dire? Although it would explain why they so desperately need a buyer. It seems clear that Short isn't going to be putting further money in anyway. Their best bet I guess is a 5 year repayment plan or something like that. But they'd have to strike a balance between not falling out of the division and paying it off.