Jump to content

Recommended Posts

54% sounds about the size of the overall progressive majority that this country has.

 

We are crying out for PR as a nation - at that point all the stupid petty divisive nonsense between the left, the left of centre and the centre can transform into robust and useful debate without offering landslides to the far fucking right.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 25.2k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • ewerk

    2710

  • Rayvin

    2597

  • Christmas Tree

    2253

  • Renton

    1941

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Roses are red Violets are blue Please vote for Labour Unless you're a Jew

Gove is the first to move. Off to the Ministry of Sound apparently.

But surely.....    

Posted Images

There's not a lot of margin for error on that though - 54% means you'd need basically everyone to vote for an agreed party in their local area. It would be an enormous achievement for political strategists, and frankly, if it's going to happen, they should start building up for it now. Not just hamfistedly pull it together later on.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

He's such a fucking boring old cunt in front of the camera too. The only time he's been box office was when he went over to America and rinsed one of their committees. 

Just as well he’s lacking in charisma tbh

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

54% sounds about the size of the overall progressive majority that this country has.

 

We are crying out for PR as a nation - at that point all the stupid petty divisive nonsense between the left, the left of centre and the centre can transform into robust and useful debate without offering landslides to the far fucking right.

 

Doesn't appear to be that split between partisan line, the data suggests that all people form all regions want PR. This is massively encouraging because 10 years ago the large majority of people outright rejected PR.

 

 

All.png

2019 election.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

There's not a lot of margin for error on that though - 54% means you'd need basically everyone to vote for an agreed party in their local area. It would be an enormous achievement for political strategists, and frankly, if it's going to happen, they should start building up for it now. Not just hamfistedly pull it together later on.

I'd be amazed if 54% of the public knew what a PR electoral system was. The figures would change a fair bit in the run up to any referendum. Ideally it would be scheduled as a standalone referendum rather than tagged on to local elections as a low turnout would certainly help the chances of success.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ewerk said:

I'd be amazed if 54% of the public knew what a PR electoral system was. The figures would change a fair bit in the run up to any referendum. Ideally it would be scheduled as a standalone referendum rather than tagged on to local elections as a low turnout would certainly help the chances of success.

 

The "Don't know" figure there is 9%, rising to  31% if you include "neither support nor oppose". Of course, people could be lying but I'm not sure why that would massively favour the PR option (depending on the wording of the question). 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

I'd be amazed if 54% of the public knew what a PR electoral system was. The figures would change a fair bit in the run up to any referendum. Ideally it would be scheduled as a standalone referendum rather than tagged on to local elections as a low turnout would certainly help the chances of success.

 

From a tactical perspective though, we'd be unlikely to get an actual referendum in place without winning power. And if we actually managed to get a coalition government into power, I'm tempted to say we shouldn't bother with the referendum and just make it law. Boris Johnson style.

Edited by Rayvin
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

From a tactical perspective though, we'd be unlikely to get an actual referendum in place without winning power. And if we actually managed to get a coalition government into power, I'm tempted to say we shouldn't bother with the referendum and just make it law. Boris Johnson style.

 

Absolutely no. This has to be properly democratically mandated, and as the figures show, would be a formality anyway. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Absolutely no. This has to be properly democratically mandated, and as the figures show, would be a formality anyway. 

 

I wouldn't risk it on a referendum myself. I'd put it straight into law on the basis that we would be able to demonstrate that "a majority of voters voted for parties which supported PR". Force feed the Tories the same lines they fed us.

 

This country, I'm sorry to say, is too poorly informed to be trusted with referendums.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I wouldn't risk it on a referendum myself. I'd put it straight into law on the basis that we would be able to demonstrate that "a majority of voters voted for parties which supported PR". Force feed the Tories the same lines they fed us.

 

This country, I'm sorry to say, is too poorly informed to be trusted with referendums.

 

Lots of issues with that. Firstly, you are more likely to get a pro-PR coalition majority in a GE if it's subject to a confirmatory vote. Secondly, imo the first term in parliament should be about determining the type of PR we want, and that should be ratified by the electorate. Thirdly, the consequences of adopting PR are much simpler to understand than leaving the EU. Fourthly, this referendum could be much better planned with adequate safeguards against lies and Russian interference put in. And finally, debasing yourself to the level of the tories by removing the democratic process is not a good look and frankly is ironic and self-defeating.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

As I’ve said before it’s ripe for being sold to the electorate but Labour need to get 100% on board. When Johnson and the Tories oppose it the reaction needs to be - we want you to have your say, we want every vote to count, the establishment don’t want this because it’ll upset the status quo, this is the only way to effect real change. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Alex said:

As I’ve said before it’s ripe for being sold to the electorate but Labour need to get 100% on board. When Johnson and the Tories oppose it the reaction needs to be - we want you to have your say, we want every vote to count, the establishment don’t want this because it’ll upset the status quo, this is the only way to effect real change. 

 

And this, relating to my first point, absolutely. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

12 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Lots of issues with that. Firstly, you are more likely to get a pro-PR coalition majority in a GE if it's subject to a confirmatory vote. Secondly, imo the first term in parliament should be about determining the type of PR we want, and that should be ratified by the electorate. Thirdly, the consequences of adopting PR are much simpler to understand than leaving the EU. Fourthly, this referendum could be much better planned with adequate safeguards against lies and Russian interference put in. And finally, debasing yourself to the level of the tories by removing the democratic process is not a good look and frankly is ironic and self-defeating.

 

 

Just going to break this up in turn for ease:

 

1 - Why? Which demographic of pro PR voters is going to want it to be subject to a confirmatory vote? That's something you put in as a safety net to capture people who don't want PR but do want the other policies your party votes for. I don't understand how those people can exist as a demographic within any of the smaller parties, and surely we're talking about an absolute minority of Labour voters at this point.

 

2 - Why? Why does the electorate need to ratify it? I appreciate that this would be desirable in an informed and functioning democracy - but we aren't one. We're a basketcase of a democracy with near American levels of political ignorance. How easy would it be for the right to whip this up into some kind of assault on freedoms, make it another angle of the culture war, threaten everyone with socialism by stealth etc etc. We aren't equipped to fight these battles with the right, we lose them over and over again.

 

3 - That didn't seem to be the case at the last PR referendum wherein nobody understood how it worked. It also didn't seem that people understood how it worked when we were dealing with MEPs. Contrastingly, while it was a woeful oversimplification of the EU issue, "In or Out" was pretty straightforward.

 

4 - We both know it won't be. Who on earth are you trusting to pull that together? There is utterly no leadership in the progressive political wing of the country. None whatsoever.

 

If we lost this referendum, we'd lose the coalition the next time out as it would break down into petty squabbles and infighting - the Tories would win again as they're the only side that can demonstrate consistent unity, largely through their ability to compromise on everything except power. I really don't think it's worth the risk, and I would ask what the downside would be if we just put it into law? Who gets up in arms about it? What serious consequence could it realistically have? Johnson has already pissed all over the concerns we had about the same issues on Brexit and has sailed right through - why are we playing this with one hand tied behind our backs?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

 

Just going to break this up in turn for ease:

 

1 - Why? Which demographic of pro PR voters is going to want it to be subject to a confirmatory vote? That's something you put in as a safety net to capture people who don't want PR but do want the other policies your party votes for. I don't understand how those people can exist as a demographic within any of the smaller parties, and surely we're talking about an absolute minority of Labour voters at this point. See Alex's post. Promising people they have a choice is much more appealing than dictating to them. 

 

2 - Why? Why does the electorate need to ratify it? I appreciate that this would be desirable in an informed and functioning democracy - but we aren't one. We're a basketcase of a democracy with near American levels of political ignorance. How easy would it be for the right to whip this up into some kind of assault on freedoms, make it another angle of the culture war, threaten everyone with socialism by stealth etc etc. We aren't equipped to fight these battles with the right, we lose them over and over again. Really? You don't think the electorate should have a say on the PR system that is introduced? You didn't say that about Brexit. This can't be done in detail beforehand in a GE, it will take a parliament to sort out and I for one want to have a say on the details, not just the notion.

 

3 - That didn't seem to be the case at the last PR referendum wherein nobody understood how it worked. It also didn't seem that people understood how it worked when we were dealing with MEPs. Contrastingly, while it was a woeful oversimplification of the EU issue, "In or Out" was pretty straightforward. That was for AV, and the incumbent party campaigned against it (can't even remember if Labour had a stance or not). This time round the incumbent coalition would be promoting it; even the tories support it 53% vs. 24% (according to that poll).

 

4 - We both know it won't be. Who on earth are you trusting to pull that together? There is utterly no leadership in the progressive political wing of the country. None whatsoever.  Why won't it be if the coalition is in power? They can strengthen the electoral commission through legal changes through parliament.  But if you don't trust them to do this, then frankly I'm out anyway.

 

If we lost this referendum, we'd lose the coalition the next time out as it would break down into petty squabbles and infighting - the Tories would win again as they're the only side that can demonstrate consistent unity, largely through their ability to compromise on everything except power. I really don't think it's worth the risk, and I would ask what the downside would be if we just put it into law? Who gets up in arms about it? What serious consequence could it realistically have? Johnson has already pissed all over the concerns we had about the same issues on Brexit and has sailed right through - why are we playing this with one hand tied behind our backs? Referendums are nearly always a shit idea EXCEPT when it comes to areas of major constitutional reform, in which case they are absolutely essential imo, Are you happy for the SNP to declare independence because they are the largest party? I honestly can't believe you're trying to improve democracy by dismantling it. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, there's the issue I think - I'm not trying to improve democracy in this action. Honestly even before all the recent examples of "democracy in action" I've been lukewarm on it as a system of governance at best. I could get behind it fully if people were forced to learn civics and could be tested for their political competence prior to being allowed to vote but it'll never happen - and yet without it, the whole thing is just a farce IMO.

 

I just want the Tories out of power. They're killing people. They've been killing people for a decade. I couldn't care less about how proper the solution is at this point, if we get that coalition in (which is just so unlikely in the first place that it would almost have to be a perfect storm of calamities for Johnson) we should make it stick so that this country can be forever saved from that fucking party. As I've said before, I'd even be prepared to work with Farage on it on the basis that he'll bring some of the Brexity working class with him and seems sympathetic to the cause.

 

If we get in and have a referendum we're risking the whole thing on a battle that we have at no point proven we are capable of winning. The Tories would fight this with so much ferocity that it would take a fully united and competent progressive alliance to face them down - and we have never, ever, ever proven that we are capable of being that. They'd be claiming socialism, rejoining the EU, more immigrants, threats to freedom of speech, all of it. Plus, their option on the referendum ticket would be "None of the above, Rule Britannia". Ours would be 4 or 5 options that no one fully understands that splits the vote every which way. And frankly, if we're going to be fully above board on this in a democratic sense, we should have to pass a 60% threshold for the change to come in otherwise we're "just as bad as they are".

Link to post
Share on other sites

imagine if he just took one day or maybe  even an hour off from lying through his fucking teeth about everything. Mind it takes a stupid electorate to let him get away with it 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Renton said:

Wonder what our country would be like now had we had stable competent governance from the likes of Merkel compared with this absolute tit?

 

 

 

Yes, it was terrible in Germany ahead of the customs union in 1833, trade got much easier between states, especially with a common jurisdiction in 1879 as well…

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 27/06/2021 at 09:16, Gemmill said:

 

 

Screenshot_20210627-081603_Chrome.thumb.jpg.64722682f0b106093555e321ed8210f8.jpg

 

Sarah Vine writing with her trademark subtlety. :lol:

 

Rumours in the comments that Gove is about to leave (or has already left) and moved in with a male advisor. Awkward breakfast in the Gove household this morning. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's enough to turn me gay, then straight, then gay again, then straight etc. I'm in a logic loop here. Who the fuck would find him attractive him full stop? He's hideous.

 

Probably  ends his chance as PM. Vine has influence so interesting to see how this plays out. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...