Terrorism

[Happy Face 29]

Yeah I watched it too. Pitched at teenagers and her inability to argue against lunatics with informed facts was disappointing but overall a balanced look at the wankers and the integrators.

 

Back to this attack, this piece from Jason Burke on why France is getting targeted and the failings of their intelligence is an informative read.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/15/why-does-france-keep-getting-attacked?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Rayvin 4964]

Yeah I watched it too. Pitched at teenagers and her inability to argue against lunatics with informed facts was disappointing but overall a balanced look at the wankers and the integrators.

 

Back to this attack, this piece from Jason Burke on why France is getting targeted and the failings of their intelligence is an informative read.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/15/why-does-france-keep-getting-attacked?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

Yes she was actually not very informed from a discussion point of view I have to confess, and I cringed a few times at her arguments. As you say, not aimed at us though.

 

I read that Burke article as well - The idea of France as this bastion of secular, liberal thinking doesn't quite fit my apparently quite Anglo-centric world view, but I can see what they're saying so it was quite eye opening. Good piece.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

If they do make a link retrospectively, he still won't have been known to have links to terrorists ahead of the attack.

I agree. You missed "known" out of your post I was replying to.

[Dr Gloom 19838]

Hollande's response? We will intensify our attacks in Syria

 

I appreciate he has to say something but how is that going to stop an African born French national? It's just a vicious circle.

 

Bomb us? We will bomb you back twice as hard. All it achieves is dead civilians and more radicals. There must be something else we can look at because this plan clearly isn't working g

What do you think he should have said? What else can be looked at? You can't reason with this ideology. They want to kill us all indiscriminately, women and children. They hate us all for what we are. They're fascists and they want to wipe the western world and what we stand for off the map. It's not something that can be hit hard and hit fast with a major - and I mean major - leaflet campaign.

 

Unlike the invasion of Iraq, which destabilised the entire region, unquestionably led to a rise in sectarian violence and radicalisation, and, let's face it, was completely pointless and Ill conceived in the first place, i think the fight against Isis in the Middle East is a just one.

 

Unlike Iraq, there's a convincing argument for regime change this time and the removal of the so called caliphate. Whether that would do anything to surpress the rise of homegrown terrorists, I don't know. There'd have to been a better post-invasion plan than Iraq that's for sure. The big issue is I'm not sure that region is ready for democracy.

[Christmas Tree 3997]

What do you think he should have said? What else can be looked at? You can't reason with this ideology. They want to kill us all indiscriminately, women and children. They hate us all for what we are. They're fascists and they want to wipe the western world and what we stand for off the map. It's not something that can be hit hard and hit fast with a major - and I mean major - leaflet campaign.

 

Unlike the invasion of Iraq, which destabilised the entire region, unquestionably led to a rise in sectarian violence and radicalisation, and, let's face it, was completely pointless and Ill conceived in the first place, i think the fight against Isis in the Middle East is a just one.

 

Unlike Iraq, there's a convincing argument for regime change this time and the removal of the so called caliphate. Whether that would do anything to surpress the rise of homegrown terrorists, I don't know. There'd have to been a better post-invasion plan than Iraq that's for sure. The big issue is I'm not sure that region is ready for democracy.

Problem is you can't do that from the air and like the taliban they will simply dissipate and either pop up in the next country or wait til the troops go home.

 

There's also no likelihood of the world coming together to do it.

[Renton 17828]

 

Yes she was actually not very informed from a discussion point of view I have to confess, and I cringed a few times at her arguments. As you say, not aimed at us though.

 

I read that Burke article as well - The idea of France as this bastion of secular, liberal thinking doesn't quite fit my apparently quite Anglo-centric world view, but I can see what they're saying so it was quite eye opening. Good piece.

Why don't you see France as the bastion of secularism? I think it is. Add to that France has proportionately the highest Muslim population in Europe. And a lot of Muslims simply don't accept the concept of secularism. That's why the battle lines have been drawn and why France is being attacked in the way it is. I think the UK is less secular and more willing to appease religiosity. But is that burying our heads in the sand?

[Happy Face 29]

Despite a criminal record which saw him convicted for the first time in March this year, Lahouaiej-Bouhlel was not known by French or Tunisian officials to have links to terrorist organisations and was said by neighbours to have had little apparent interest in religion.

 

Echoing the remarks of French officials, security sources in Tunisia said he was not known by the Tunisian authorities to hold radical or Islamist views.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/15/bastille-day-truck-driver-was-known-to-police-reports-say?CMP=twt_gu

[Monkeys Fist 38824]

There's always the possibility that this wasn't "terrorism", and was a one man nut job acting alone.

When you read through the descriptions of him, he doesn't sound at all like he'd been radicalised, just a violent, angry twat.

[Rayvin 4964]

Why don't you see France as the bastion of secularism? I think it is. Add to that France has proportionately the highest Muslim population in Europe. And a lot of Muslims simply don't accept the concept of secularism. That's why the battle lines have been drawn and why France is being attacked in the way it is. I think the UK is less secular and more willing to appease religiosity. But is that burying our heads in the sand?

 

I meant more that I'd never particularly considered it. If someone had asked me what the bastion for liberal thinking was, I probably would have said Sweden. For secularism, maybe even China. I do see it for France though, just had never given it much thought.

 

Agree on the rest, but I think the UK method might be more successful in the long and short run. Our values will seep in over time, and it will be harder and harder to radicalise people. In the UK, I suspect we're largely winning that particular battle. In France, there is presumably less tolerance, and therefore no subtle seeping of cultural values. It is, I expect, rather more sledgehammer.

[Rayvin 4964]

There's always the possibility that this wasn't "terrorism", and was a one man nut job acting alone.

When you read through the descriptions of him, he doesn't sound at all like he'd been radicalised, just a violent, angry twat.

 

Yeah this is very true as well. Like the Orlando guy seems to be. Although we're fucked if your average violent twats are doing this kind of shit now along with the bloody terrorists...

 

Remember that guy who took that plane down a while back too? These people do exist.

[NJS 3986]

The Tunisian beach bloke was described as a lone wolf/nutter for a few days before they found he'd been to terrorist camp - early days I think.

[Monkeys Fist 38824]

 

I meant more that I'd never particularly considered it. If someone had asked me what the bastion for liberal thinking was, I probably would have said Sweden. For secularism, maybe even China. I do see it for France though, just had never given it much thought.

 

Agree on the rest, but I think the UK method might be more successful in the long and short run. Our values will seep in over time, and it will be harder and harder to radicalise people. In the UK, I suspect we're largely winning that particular battle. In France, there is presumably less tolerance, and therefore no subtle seeping of cultural values. It is, I expect, rather more sledgehammer.

There's also a huge racism problem in France, between "traditional French" and those from France's former North African colonies.

I lived in the south during the 1990s, albeit in an essentially rural area, and it was bubbling along just below the surface.

Chez will be far better placed to comment on the situation in the cities.

[Monkeys Fist 38824]

The Tunisian beach bloke was described as a lone wolf/nutter for a few days before they found he'd been to terrorist camp - early days I think.

Absolutely, I'm not dismissing it as a jihadist act, it's highly likely tbh.

Just putting the option out there- seems odd that no group have "claimed" him yet, though.

[Dr Gloom 19838]

Problem is you can't do that from the air and like the taliban they will simply dissipate and either pop up in the next country or wait til the troops go home.

 

There's also no likelihood of the world coming together to do it.

You're probably right. The whole situation is fucked. We never should have taken out Saddam. He was without question a tyrant who slaughtered his own people but at least the country was under control.

 

And j69 is right that the mess we left behind after the last invasion created a breeding ground for terrorists.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Dr Gloom

[Christmas Tree 3997]

 

Yeah this is very true as well. Like the Orlando guy seems to be. Although we're fucked if your average violent twats are doing this kind of shit now along with the bloody terrorists...

 

Remember that guy who took that plane down a while back too? These people do exist.

And that guy from Sweden / Norway ?? who shot all those kids on the island.

 

Regardless of what triggered him, it's devastating that such an easily accessible "weapon" has resulted in over 300 deaths / casualties. Why now get involved in the risky business of suicide belts and automatic weapons when you can simply hire a truck.

 

Horrible.

[Rayvin 4964]

There are some disturbing reports coming out about the Bataclan murders... doubt they're true, but some investigators claiming that the French government covered up the fact that there were multiple eye gougings and castrations involved as well.

 

I don't expect this was so, as surely some of the survivors would have revealed it, but perhaps this is an escalation in the climate of fear...

[Monkeys Fist 38824]

That's been soundly debunked.

The rumours are bring rehashed, after Nice, by....

 

Surprise Surprise , The Mail and Fox News

[Rayvin 4964]

Thank fuck for that...

[Christmas Tree 3997]

Looks like shopping centre in Munich being attacked

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

Fuck sake, multiple deaths reported. Apparently a shooting rampage, then the perpetrator has fled onto the underground.

[Dr Gloom 19838]

What the fuck is wrong with the world? Stop killing innocent civilians you twats!

[Christmas Tree 3997]

I thought I'd put the word "Muslim" into Twitter to see if there was any over reaction going on. 3rd one that came up was this.

 

 

Now I'm in no position to mock others use of the English language but....

[adios 717]

What the fuck is wrong with the world? Stop killing innocent civilians you twats!

Doesn't even register on what "we've" been doing in the Middle East for how long?

 

And I share your feeling that this hits home way more.

 

/bog trotting terrorist sympathiser

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

Reports are saying that it's the work of white supremacists.

[Gemmill 34622]

I thought I'd put the word "Muslim" into Twitter to see if there was any over reaction going on. 3rd one that came up was this.

 

 

Now I'm in no position to mock others use of the English language but.... [emoji38]

Playing to his audience.