JJ 0 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I haven't done the maths but I'd imagine that a huge shift to the left would see gains in Scotland but an awful lot of losses in England. Possibly. Which is exactly (though not my only) my argument for Scottish independence, and as most know here, I'm not an SNP voter. The Scottish electorate wants something completely different from the English electorate, but we get what England chooses. That's not sour grapes. It's just population maths. Labour's only argument in Scotland at the election (which resonated with most of their voters) was "don't vote SNP, you'll get the Tories." A good portion of the Labour vote agreed with the SNP's anti austerity agenda, but chose Labour because they know no matter how pathetic and impotent the Labour Party is, the Tories should not be given the keys to the castle. I'm completely fed up of living in a political landscape where the best argument for Labour is that they're not the Tories, yet Labour are so desperately trying to be the Tories so as not to alienate middle England voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3981 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Exactly JJ - stop trying to appeal to the wrong people and try to appeal to the right ones for the right reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 5933 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 £15 lighter today after becoming a fully fledged labour member Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Exactly JJ - stop trying to appeal to the wrong people and try to appeal to the right ones for the right reasons. They spent the last five years doing that opposing every cut etc etc. it didn't work. The answer is not the corbyns memory lane ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3206 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 They spent the last five years doing that opposing every cut etc etc. it didn't work. The answer is not the corbyns memory lane ideas. Which cuts did they oppose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 3981 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 They spent the last five years doing that opposing every cut etc etc. it didn't work. The answer is not the corbyns memory lane ideas. No, they spent 5 years meekly accepting the Tory narrative on the economy in the hope that the swing voters who voted for Blair would return. They didn't because as you yourself pointed out, there was so little difference between their plans and the Tories, people just voted on milliband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Which cuts did they oppose? All of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 No, they spent 5 years meekly accepting the Tory narrative on the economy in the hope that the swing voters who voted for Blair would return. They didn't because as you yourself pointed out, there was so little difference between their plans and the Tories, people just voted on milliband. I know your left of left, but is there a truly traditional left wing party in Europe that is a model for Labour going forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 http://www.wsj.com/articles/miliband-misery-heightens-european-left-wings-travails-1431289440 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14610 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I know your left of left, but is there a truly traditional left wing party in Europe that is a model for Labour going forward? France and Germany's governments are traditionally and continue to be left of centre, certainly to the left of any UK conservative government I can think of. The French government continue partial state ownership of car companies, Renault and Citroen I think? What makes being anti austerity left wing? can you provide some examples of where an austerity policy has worked well for a given economy? Quick, give it a google Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 France and Germany's governments are traditionally and continue to be left of centre, certainly to the left of any UK conservative government I can think of. The French government continue partial state ownership of car companies, Renault and Citroen I think? What makes being anti austerity left wing? can you provide some examples of where an austerity policy has worked well for a given economy? Quick, give it a google I didn't say anti austerity was "left wing". I was asking a genuine question as to whether there was a traditional left wing European party that could be a role model for Labour going forward. Austerity won't even be an issue at the next election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3206 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 All of them You're an american big game huntter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14610 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I didn't say anti austerity was "left wing". I was asking a genuine question as to whether there was a traditional left wing European party that could be a role model for Labour going forward. Austerity won't even be an issue at the next election. Of course it will be if that useless prick Osborne keeps borrowing more than Labour did in a shorter period. Labour needs to position itself against austerity. If the country doesn't go for it that's fine, but they cant turn themselves into tory lite. Corbyn if he wins needs a moderate deputy. If Burnham wins he needs Tom Watson. But they have to remember what they exist for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Of course it will be if that useless prick Osborne keeps borrowing more than Labour did in a shorter period. Labour needs to position itself against austerity. If the country doesn't go for it that's fine, but they cant turn themselves into tory lite. Corbyn if he wins needs a moderate deputy. If Burnham wins he needs Tom Watson. But they have to remember what they exist for. They're aiming for a surplus BEFORE the next election. It won't be an issue. Personally, I think Labour are now finished. A jump to the left just quickens its demise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13866 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 They're aiming for a surplus BEFORE the next election. It won't be an issue. Personally, I think Labour are now finished. A jump to the left just quickens its demise. As if the last 5 years hasn't gone completely tits up for most of the country apart from the rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34533 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Stiglitz Tree: it won't be an issue. You can't do basic maths, what the fuck would you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Stiglitz Tree: it won't be an issue. You can't do basic maths, what the fuck would you know? Don't disturb yourself with such issues. I'm sure you've got more important business to attend to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 34533 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 You've had that saved for weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 3997 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 As if the last 5 years hasn't gone completely tits up for most of the country apart from the rich The extra 2 million in work? The elderly given a decent pension? Council tax frozen for all? Extra child care for families? Millions given a tax cut? Millions taken out of paying tax all together? Millions more apprenticeships? No illegal wars? Aye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14610 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 They're aiming for a surplus BEFORE the next election. It won't be an issue. Personally, I think Labour are now finished. A jump to the left just quickens its demise. Yeah like George was going to reduce borrowing in the last Parliament..how did that go again? Thing is Labour didn't lay a glove on them on this issue, which was in general the problem...that's the point. After 10+ years of the tories next time round and Labour being itself again, the country may be willing to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 14610 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 *TORY CENTRAL OFFICE BULLSHIT PAMPHLET* Aye adjusted for clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 26898 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The extra 2 million in work? The elderly given a decent pension? Council tax frozen for all? Extra child care for families? Millions given a tax cut? Millions taken out of paying tax all together? Millions more apprenticeships? No illegal wars? Aye We'll be around £100+ worse off a MONTH. If we weren't getting tax credits we'd be £40 a YEAR better off. Millions will be a fanny's hair better off, millions will be substantially much worse off and a few will be doing very well thank you very much. Same old Tories, Absolute cunts to a man/woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 13866 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 adjusted for clarity Basically. Aye None of it stands up to scrutiny. 2 million extra in work ffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howmanheyman 26898 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Basically. Aye None of it stands up to scrutiny. 2 million extra in work ffs. There's always kids off the dole starting at our place. The global multi billion pound company I work or uses an agency who deal with zero hours contracts and obviously have a high turnover of employees. Maybe that's where the two million are from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 14055 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 http://www.wsj.com/articles/miliband-misery-heightens-european-left-wings-travails-1431289440 Never had you down as a Wall Street Journal subscriber, I have to admit. You learn something new every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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