Rayvin

https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/ Almost half of Israelis want to expel Arabs full stop from Israel occupied territories. 79% believe Arabs should be second class citizens if they do remain. A significant number of these people identify as centrist. This continues to feel like it's not a religious conflict to me.

Is the point to play stuff together? If it is, in this day and age you need two different setups really.

I think we've moved off to the side a bit here with this now being a more general attack on the left rather than a focus on extremist violence. I assume you do acknowledge that extremist violence is a largely right wing phenomenon. As for what you've outlined, I think a lot of cancelling goes both ways personally - the right do all the same things they're just not as technologically savvy at the grassroots so tend to be less effective with it. Both sides try to shut each other down. Antifa was branded a terrorist organization if I recall? The police dragged off anti-monarchists during the coronation/funeral proceedings of the royals. Right wing US states are targeting CRT and other academic considerations in their overhaul of the education system. Moralising clampdowns on trans people, etc. Whether you agree with the US authorities in their approach to each case or not, we would have to acknowledge that they are censoring/cancelling things that most people would deem to be left wing. The difference tends to be, IMO, that the right is in power and so can cancel things officially. The actual/moderate left is never in power, so has to work from grassroots. The extent of the damage Trump has done really depends on your other political priorities and worldview, so while I acknowledge what you've outlined in your case for him, I do not agree that he was infinitely less dangerous simply because he sped up American hegemonic decline and created a power vacuum that has led to the widespread destabilisation of the geopolitical order. See also Brexit, but localised to Europe/Russia. From an internationalist outlook (mine), Trump was a disaster.

Completely true IMO.

I agree that communism is left wing extremism, but I am just indicating that in the past 10 years there are an incredibly small number of left wing extremist killings. That will include anyone of a communist slant. The evidence just isn't there that the left are the dangerous ones in the present conversation. Radical islam isn't tolerated by anyone - the left will rally around Muslims in defence of them against islamophobia, and it will point to islamic terrorism being a consequence of our own failed foreign policy, but that's it. Current right wing extremism has more in common with radical islam than the left does IMO - they are brothers in arms of dealing with women and trans people for instance. Andrew Tate has a very significant following amongst young Asian men.

I don't have kids so I can't talk to this from a position of any experience, but I am very close to someone who grew up with a condition called selective mutism - sort of a social anxiety driven condition that makes it very difficult for children to communicate in situations where they are not comfortable. I'm not saying that's what this is, but there are some parallels in what you've described versus what this person has explained to me. I would suggest at the very least bringing a child therapist into the conversation just to rule out this being anything other than a phase. It could be that it's nothing of the sort, but from what I have seen of the damage these sort of social limitation issues can cause, it might be worth just getting a view from someone in the know.

How often, really, are the left wing of politics 'in this day and age' involved in actually killing anyone? I can think of several right wing killers but I always seem to come up short on anyone being killed by Antifa, or by communists, or whatever. From the ADL: https://www.adl.org/resources/report/murder-and-extremism-united-states-2022 Left wing extremism makes up 4% of extremism related deaths since 2013. The right, to no one's surprise at all, makes up 75%. Islamists take the remainder. I don't think jokes by left wingers are as big a threat as hysteria and misinformation from the right.

I think you're doing very well all things considered mate in what must be an absolutely horrifying time on a personal level and for which I genuinely do feel for you and your family. I don't think the conclusion that we can't or shouldn't discuss it would be just about you - as said, I don't feel able to engage with any of it properly even just on my own end. Anyway I just wanted to acknowledge that I'm personally open to that outcome if that's the way everyone feels on it in the end.

I've stopped engaging in this as of a few days ago because I don't believe that it is actually possible to properly discuss it here, but I don't think you should be shaming people over debate in a topic that was opened specifically for them to do so. I think so far everyone has conducted themselves very well and with a significant amount of restraint and compassion over an issue that genuinely does seem to cut across political lines - especially compared to what I've seen from the same conversation in other communities. I think the alternative would be to close the thread.

It does sound like this is probably a big enough deal to have been really bothering him. Maybe he was told that he'd probably have his playing career in Italy interfered if he stayed.

Fascist remark aside, all I saw from him there was a man who knew that the order to 1.1m people to relocate in 24 hours was an abominable action, who knew that he and his government should have opposed it, but who was too weak and lacking in leadership to do so - consequently just hedging the question in the standard politician way until the timer for the interview ran out. He ran away and hid and we should not take him seriously as a politician, a leader or even a fucking man.

Reform UK up to 8% is interesting there mind. Almost on par with the LDs.

So I'm going to be honest here and say my interpretation of 'betting on cards' is poker. I assume it's not that though because I don't see why they would need to 'admit' it - so what is meant by that phrase?

That would be the ideal outcome for us, but I'm not sure exactly how it works if it is indeed a criminal situation.

Grim thought but what would happen if it turns out to be true? You'd think anything over a year would be a contract cancellation but that leaves us massively out of pocket.

What would we do if we were Palestine? I don't understand why this question isn't asked. Imagine we were brutalised under apartheid, with our oppressor frequently and randomly killing our civilians over the years, including 2000 children. What would the British response to that be?

I'm not here to say that any of that isn't barbaric. But I think I might be here to say that Israel has done a lot of similar stuff over the years, and if as Renton says we're talking about a huge and devastating long term effect on the psyche of Israel based on what has just happened, presumably we have to accept that a huge and devastating long term effect has already been had on Palestinians. That huge and devastating effect is definitely part of why we're here. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12283431/CCTV-shows-Palestinian-boy-shot-dead-Israeli-sniper-unarmed.html Israeli sniper shoots and kills a teenage boy as he tries to give blood. https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-child-killed-west-bank-violence-9360cf006193ab8f1139c4fdb43e4f73 Israeli soldier shoots and kills a toddler 3 months ago. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel Israeli soldiers shoot a 10 year old girl dead as she's running away, confirm the kill by emptying their magazine into her, and then claim that they would have killed her even if she was 3 years old. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/10/video-appears-show-cheers-israeli-sniper-shoots-palestinian Israeli sniper executes an unarmed Palestinian man to cheering from his comrades, just because he could. Since 2000, Israeli soldiers and settlers have murdered 2,171 Palestinian children. On top of which, 139 Israeli children have been murdered by Palestinian militants. To say this state of affairs is tragic is actually a huge understatement. The world should be utterly appalled at the decades of horror and torment that both sides have lived under. I think my point in all of this is where Anthony fucking Blinken has been for all of the atrocities going the other way. Perhaps if he and others had stood up and done something about it, we wouldn't be where we are right now, drowning in yet more death and misery.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html Here is the Israeli government walking back the beheading claim. The Israeli official wasn't describing things she had seen, she was describing what an Israeli soldier had told her he had seen, apparently. I have seen those images of the poor child too - clearly a lot of children are dying in this moment. Many children died before this moment too. All of it is absolutely despicable and unforgiveable irrespective of who carried it out.

I'm not disputing that, I am simply saying in the case of Palestine, I think there is an actual reason for Palestinian Arabs to be very hostile to Israel - and consequently for the less well educated amongst them to broaden that out to Jews in general. They see themselves as victims being persecuted so they build up resentment and hatred. I don't think considering this as the same sort of antisemitism as that which Jewish people have suffered for centuries at the hands of Europeans in general is necessarily a helpful approach. It suggests for instance that there is nothing that Israel could do to influence this situation to a better outcome - when in fact its own hatred of Palestinians is complicit in fuelling a lot of this.

I believe those reports are still unverified. Israel walked that one back and has since claimed that they can't confirm it.

Do you think there's any possibility that a lot of these reactions might be coming from the wider indifference to the deaths of Palestinian people and the implications of Israel's apartheid? This is a sincere question rather than a rhetorical one. I'm not sure this is as simple as they hate Jews just because they hate Jews. I think they would argue they hate Jews "because..." Not saying that makes this situation any better for British Jews who have nothing to do with this of course, it's completely misplaced hatred either way that wrongly focuses on ethnicity instead of government policy.

450 children so far mind..

Honestly am a bit taken aback by the the response from UK based Palestinians. Its not like British Jewish people have anything to do with this - they'd be better off going for the Britain itself in terms of culpability.

Ivan Toney's one wasn't a criminal case was it? Maybe it was I guess but I thought it was an ethics thing and therefore an FA matter.

Why would the police be involved in this? Is that normal?