Thatcher and Hillsborough

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

Too many people are wanting resignations.I don't want any resignations.I want sackings,and no warning the culprits so they can resign with full police pensions.Get them sacked,and for once,let's see the police experience the wheels of justice drag their feet over their appeals.Hopefully for 23 years at least.The guilty police officers are going to fight this,so let them pay huge solicitors fees,like the Justice for the 96 people have had to. Where's that clown Lord of Framwellgate bloke when you want him.Didn't he get his Lordship through union work when with the police.

[PaddockLad 14600]

I think you'll find internment was legal under the laws of the day. Just like it's modern day equivalent is legal today, thanks to the measures introduced under Labour. These days though the police don't really need to intern hundreds of suspects on the off-chance they'll get lucky though do they? Not when in this day and age they have access to a legally obtained list of all the muslims who were at a specific place at a specific time, or have used a specific phrase in an email or a text message in a specific time period. Or better yet, not now that they can contact the undercover policeman/spy that has infiltrated the relevant mosque or faith school. I never said the tories were the true defenders of civil liberties, I'm just trying to correct your warped recollection of the political history of these isles. Still, you keep believing you live in a nice free society because it's not the 70s/80s. The only way your mind apparently would be change was if you were lucky enough to be personally affected by it.

 

I dont as it goes, which you may have picked up as I acknowleged several reasonable points you made. Now hurry along to the thread on Alan Pardew's comments where your shocking lack of football knowlegde is being exposed...Ben Arfa had 13 caps for France when he signed for us

[NJS 3981]

Sadly all governments, even those who come to power with good intentions, fall foul of the real establishment in this country - the aristocracy, the judiciary, the forces and the senior civil service. To some extent it doesn't matter who's in power as those bodies always get their own way and get away with murder. What this country's history lacks is a proper revolution.

[Craig 6307]

I've said my piece on Hillsborough many times and been shot down about it more than once. Truth is out now, lets bring on the justice.

 

As has been said before Thatcher is way too far in La-La Land to even appreciate what's happened let alone stand trial. Besides she never would have - zero responsibility for what goes on below.

 

The coroner is surely in the shit (was still protesting he was right at the 20th anniversary IIRC!) as is Duckenfield and the bloke now Chief Constable of WYP. I'd suggest the safety officer at SWFC probably is in for a hiding too. Doubt very much anyone at FA with responsibility is still alive to answer for why they continued to hold Semi-Finals at a delapidated ground, with no valid safety certificate year after year.

 

It's crystal clear to me what went on. Thatcher's right-wing clowns had for some years wanted to cut the militant-led borough of Merseyside loose - she and her cronies treated football fans as '2nd class citizens' regardless of who they were and this was her perfect opportunity to destroy any credibility she thought good, honest football fans had left. She was wrong, VERY wrong. Stupidly thought this was a repeat of Heysel and those with authority tried to make sure it looked that way. She held a similar disdain for Tyneside that she did Merseyside. That tells me that if it had been our fans in the Leppings Lane end that fateful day, we'd have been spending the past 23 years fighting for justice.

 

This is bigger than just football - MUCH bigger. There's been the death of Ian Tomlinson, the findings off the Leevson inquiry and now this. Our Policing system is a sham - the very same that the authorities tried to tell us that football fans were 23 years ago.

 

I was a football fan 23 years as were many who post here. I was a person, a human being, I was due the right to go to a football match to watch my team and then go home again safe in the knowledge that the police were there to protect me. And so were 96 Liverpool fans who went to Hillsborough in April 1989.

 

Finally to all those who knew (not suspected) that there was a cover up but said absolutely nothing until the findings of the Independant Panel were revealed. Fucking shame on you!!! And that includes many, many public figures. You don't keep something like that covered up for almost a quarter of a century without there being corruption at ALL levels.

 

Many of you know my other half should have been there that day - I think I've also said she lost a mate that day. It wasn't just a mate, it was her boyfriend at the time. She's been to hell and back and Wednesday was a horrible, horrible day. At least now the truth's out she feels he can finally rest in peace.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Craig

[NYD 0]

I've said my piece on Hillsborough many times and been shot down about it more than once. Truth is out now, lets bring on the justice.

 

As has been said before Thatcher is way too far in La-La Land to even appreciate what's happened let alone stand trial. Besides she never would have - zero responsibility for what goes on below.

 

The coroner is surely in the shit (was still protesting he was right at the 20th anniversary IIRC!) as is Duckenfield and the bloke now Chief Constable of WYP. I'd suggest the safety officer at SWFC probably is in for a hiding too. Doubt very much anyone at FA with responsibility is still alive to answer for why they continued to hold Semi-Finals at a delapidated ground, with no valid safety certificate year after year.

 

It's crystal clear to me what went on. Thatcher's right-wing clowns had for some years wanted to cut the militant-led borough of Merseyside loose - she and her cronies treated football fans as '2nd class citizens' regardless of who they were and this was her perfect opportunity to destroy any credibility she thought good, honest football fans had left. She was wrong, VERY wrong. Stupidly thought this was a repeat of Heysel and those with authority tried to make sure it looked that way. She held a similar disdain for Tyneside that she did Merseyside. That tells me that if it had been our fans in the Leppings Lane end that fateful day, we'd have been spending the past 23 years fighting for justice.

 

This is bigger than just football - MUCH bigger. There's been the death of Ian Tomlinson, the findings off the Leevson inquiry and now this. Our Policing system is a sham - the very same that the authorities tried to tell us that football fans were 23 years ago.

 

I was a football fan 23 years as were many who post here. I was a person, a human being, I was due the right to go to a football match to watch my team and then go home again safe in the knowledge that the police were there to protect me. And so were 96 Liverpool fans who went to Hillsborough in April 1989.

 

Finally to all those who knew (not suspected) that there was a cover up but said absolutely nothing until the findings of the Independant Panel were revealed. Fucking shame on you!!! And that includes many, many public figures. You don't keep something like that covered up for almost a quarter of a century without there being corruption at ALL levels.

 

Many of you know my other half should have been there that day - I think I've also said she lost a mate that day. It wasn't just a mate, it was her boyfriend at the time. She's been to hell and back and Wednesday was a horrible, horrible day. At least now the truth's out she feels he can finally rest in peace.

 

Spot on

[PaddockLad 14600]

She still had all her faculties though when she stated that the cover up by the SYP which was implied in the Taylor Report was "depressingly familiar". Did fuck all about it though, and neither did anyone else. Am sure you could get some solicitor wanting to make a name for himself to say that that would make her complicit in the cover up. Dont know if it would stand up in court and obviously its irrelevant now due to her health, but still...

[essembeeofsunderland 811]

Pressure was clearly put on people to say nowt,or tell lies,especially police officers but why have none of them come out in the last 23 years with the truth,reference the false statements. Many will have retired with full pensions during this time so why have they stayed quiet knowing how the families of the 96 have still been suffering.They acted like scum at the time and continue to be so. Hands up all of you who would have been ok volunteering to give a DNA sample to the police,if the chance had come your way,and who still would.

[Gene_Clark 12]

The news that incompetence and complacent avarice at the heart of the English domestic game was the root cause of the Hillsborough disaster and appalling police tactics on the day itself the main contributory factor as regards the scale of the tragedy, bearing in mind the complete contempt and outright hostility with which all football fans, regardless of club, social class or social demographic, were viewed by the entire ruling sectors of society, will come as absolute no surprise to anyone who has the slightest insight in to the nature of British society during the Thatcher Years. You don’t need to have been a regular matchgoer, or even to have lived through the era, though obviously both of those things are relevant in terms of the insight they give to the prevailing social conditions of the time, to understand the brutal, repressive nature of the Police State that Britain was during the 1980s; a cursory, dispassionate appraisal of the legislation passed during this period, allied to the outpourings of pro-Government propaganda on television and in the press, shows exactly how hard it was to assert individuality during that era. Orwell’s image of the boot heel repeatedly stamping on a human face was as much a literal fact as a metaphorical image in the year of 1984.

 

From the Brixton Riots of 1981, to the South Atlantic imperialist adventure in the Malvinas in 82, to the decade long utter dismantling of manufacturing industry and the attendant social problems caused by the lumpenization of the British working classes that blight cities throughout the land to this day, the Thatcher agenda of reverse class war is evident from day 1; nothing sums up this repulsive ideology of brutalising hatred more than the Miners’ Strike of 1984/1985. This tragic defeat cut deep wounds in to the social fabric of mining communities throughout the land; in parts of South Yorkshire these wounds still have not healed. My ex-wife is from Barnsley; her best friend from school married a miner from South Elmshall. When his pit shut in 93, in the second wave of Hesletine-inspired cuts, he joined the police force. From that day onwards, his family refused to speak to him, using a single word by means of explanation for their actions; Orgreave. Who can really blame them?

 

Don’t just take my word for it, read David Peace’s mesmerising, brilliant fictional retelling of Governmental malfeasance and the tragic impact it had on the lives of ordinary, dignified working class lives in GB84. Once you’ve read that book, you’ll be prepared for the soon come revelations that deceit, corruption and the vile manipulation of a complaint media by the forces of social control were involved in the shameful absolving of blame of South Yorkshire Constabulary in the Hillsborough disaster. The bastards may have got away with it for 23 years, but the facts will out and they will show that the Government fixed it for the Police to get off scot free in the aftermath of 96 tragic, preventable deaths, as a way of saying thanks to SYP for ensuring the Miners’ Strike failed and ensuring that the boys in blue would continue to act as state condoned shock troops, hell-bent on social repression and drunk on power.

 

Remember; 96 innocent people died at a football match. That should never happen. Even at the time, the newly-released Hillsborough papers, made available on the day that the contemptible Michael Owen tweeted “Big thanks to the Police” after Cheshire plod had apprehended a trespasser at his racing stables, show the admission at the time that 41 lives, at a conservative estimate, could have been saved were it not for police tactics. These tactics may be seen, and to an extent excused, as being merely incompetent, but that is wrong. The actions of SYP were actually based on the prevailing attitude of the ruling elite that regarded all fans as potential criminals and an enemy to be confronted and tamed by any means necessary. A new inquest, allowing for evidence beyond the farcically imposed cut off point off 3.15, must follow and, though I’m not holding my breath, proper justice must be seen to be served by a series of court cases against those involved in the disaster and subsequent cover-up. However, bearing in mind the supine, obsequious nature of the CPS when required to take on the establishment, at best we may be looking at a few sacrificial lambs, hauloed up to be given suspended sentences, mainly on account of the fact they’ve gone off message from the wall of silent deceit and the closing of the thin blue line in obfuscatory contempt. Witness the Head of West Yorkshire Police, who was on duty that fateful day, stating last week “Fans’ behaviour … made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be.” The blame is still being heaped on the innocent and the dead and that truly sickens me.

 

At the time of the disaster, the ruling class attitude of repression and contempt was as pervasive as it was effective, both tactically and ideologically. The day of Hillsborough, I was watching Newcastle lose 1-0 to a Paul Davis penalty against Arsenal at Highbury; they’d be champions and we’d finish bottom. In a ground where the facilities knocked spots off the crumbling concrete and rusting girders I was used to, stewards treated away fans with dignity and decency; unlike the hideous crushes and appalling views of White Hart Lane, or air of impending violence that hung over Stamford Bridge like noxious cigar smoke, Highbury was a decent place to watch a game of football. We still lost. Nick Hornby writes brilliantly about the day and the kneejerk reaction of fans in Fever Pitch. I hold my hand up as guilty as the rest in assuming, when I heard the news of the disaster, that “Scouse bastards” had gone on the rampage and caused an abandonment. Basically, the media stereotype of football hooligans permeated the consciousness of other football fans, giving an indication as the effectiveness of the state propaganda machine. There is no better example of false consciousness prevalent among ordinary fans than the anti-Liverpool comments I heard inside and outside of Highbury that day. That said, all of us learned very quickly that we’d made terrible false assumptions. Don’t blame us; blame hegemony, as wielded by the Thatcher state apparatus. Divide and rule was their mantra and their casus belli.

 

I was in London that weekend for a gig; Dinosaur Jr in Kentish Town, staying with some mates who simply didn’t do football. Attired in bike jacket, Butthole Surfers t-shirt, tartan lumberjack shirt, split-knee 501s and paint-spattered 7 hole DMs, it was fair to say I was at variance to the football casual fashions of the day. Indeed, I didn’t look like a football fan at all, which enabled me to blend in with ease as I made my way from Highbury back towards Finsbury Park and the pre-gig meet up in The World’s End pub on Upper Tollington Park. All the way up, I eavesdropped on conversations about the goings-on at Hillsboorugh and to those carrying transistors tuned to Sports Report, as the news from Sheffield unfolded. A sense of unease, mingled with guilt, that turned to shock, horror and eventually boiling anger, as further revelations about the day emerged; it wasn’t “Scouse bastards” to blame at all; it was “Tory bastards.” 23 years on, it is still the “Tory bastards” we must blame. Strangely, I didn’t hear a single word about the disaster at the gig; in those days, music and football were different worlds. Mind, I’d still contend that arena gigs of landfill indie that many fans seem to consider the cutting edge of popular culture are as contemptible as the Luther Vandross and Gloria Estefan soundtrack 80s footballers seemed addicted to.

 

Despite the poisonous lies spread by Murdoch’s minions in the immediate aftermath, the real truth was to be found in the samizdat accounts of supporter zeitgeist in the fanzine movement. These days When Saturday Comes may be a toothless billet doux for AFC Wimbledon, but back then, it was a crusading mouthpiece for the articulate disenfranchised. WSC was clear about Hillsborough; this was not our fault, it was the fault of the authorities who’d treat us like cattle for so many years. Sadly, the events of 15th April 1989 meant so many of our fellow supporters were lambs to the slaughter.

 

The emergence of a percentage of the truth related to Hillsborough means that we must never forgive and never forget; the petty whining of Newcastle fans about squad strength or the first half against Everton has been put firmly in context, as has the Ferdinand / Terry situation. Red herrings such as these and the excoriation of Manchester United fans for singing “it’s never your fault” to a Liverpool fan base who continue to chant about Munich to this day, revealing both sets of fans need to get their house in order and a blame or victim culture does nothing but play in to the hands of enemies of the game, must not deflect from the inalienable truth; 96 innocent football fans lost their lives. Those responsible for those deaths, historically and on the day of the tragedy, as well as those who smeared the victims and covered up the corruption and incompetence that followed, must be brought to book. Only when this has happened can we truly say we will have seen Justice For The 96.

[Tooj 17]

[Brock Manson 0]

[Christmas Tree 3997]

[sniffer 0]

FFS, no wonder there are questions about the health of the forum.

[Howmanheyman 26870]

Agreed in this instance.

[@yourservice 67]

The truth about Hillsborough, docu on channel 5 now.

[The Fish 8994]

[Gene_Clark 12]

This bit's pretty rich too. I've never met a communist in my life that was much of a fan of individual expression and a free press.

 

no, you've never met me

[Tom 13861]

That was a good read Gene but your first sentence was hideous.

[Park Life 70]

Excellent writing Gene.

[The Fish 8994]

Might be worth putting Gene's post as an article Ant?

[sniffer 0]

In the Daily Worker?

[Gene_Clark 12]

It was the Miners' Strike.

 

Also, I met Peter Taylor once; the father of a lad I went to University with was a QC (who defended Peter Sutcliffe as a matter of fact) had been in chambers with Taylor & the eminent Lord was at their house in Clayton Road in Jesmond some time in 86 when I called round in the holidays one time. It wouldn't be true to say we had discussions.

 

I'm glad you're able to make all the conclusions about my post in relation to my personality; we must go back a long time, so frighteningly & uncannily accurate is your assessment of my personality & belief system.

[Kitman 2188]

My abiding impression of the Thatcher years - that I lived through - is that the Tories as a party hated football fans. They were probably the same as the unruly non upwardly mobile working classes in their minds. I don't think it had a lot to do with what happened at Hillsborough but I suspect it coloured the reaction to it especially the implementation of the Taylor Report.

 

I don't think that's a socialist or communist viewpoint, just pretty much how they came across at the time.

[spongebob toonpants 3604]

I pretty much agree with all of Genes post -thats exactly how I feel looking back.

 

Apart from I always used to favour the Devonshire Arms before a night out at the Town and Country club

[NJS 3981]

The whole point is she created the atmosphere in the country that allowed it to happen - if you don't realise how pervasive her influence was on Britain in the 80s and how it still exists then its obvious you didn't live through it or you are that blind.

[PaddockLad 14600]

The whole point is she created the atmosphere in the country that allowed it to happen - if you don't realise how pervasive her influence was on Britain in the 80s and how it still exists then its obvious you didn't live through it or you are that blind.

 

He's not even that good a wummer really. But as you say, it's highly unlikely that he was affected by anything at all devicesive that her policies resulted in, or he was and loved her for it. Strange cat.