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Generic small time football blather thread FOREVER


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18 hours ago, Diego21 said:

The first thing I have to say is that racism is not justifiable at any time.

I myself remember how, when I was very little, the Cameroonian goalkeeper Kameni was insulted at the Atleti stadium (I even remember that bananas were thrown at him).

Beyond minority groups or ultras in soccer in some teams, I can assure you that Spain is not a racist country.

 

@Diego21 Firstly, yes we can both agree that racism is not justifiable at any time, however I would extend beyond this and say that true racism is deplorable and should bring with it punishment. 

 

The way I've read it, you're effectively reducing racism down by excusing it to minority groups and ultras. There's a point where reduction of it, or allowance and tolerance of it in any way shape or form allows those who are the victims of it to continue to suffer without protection or the feeling of support.

 

18 hours ago, Diego21 said:

But I think a serious mistake is being made because Vinicius and Real Madrid are fueling a controversy based on lies and modified videos. The videos that are being published are not relays (and Vinicius is not considering leaving the League).

And beware, yes, there will be 3-4 or 5 or I don't know, maybe 40 spectators who said racist things to him, but it's not a whole stadium of 45,000 people. Inside the stadium, the Valencia fans yelled at him "Silly" and not "Mono". I mean, they called him an idiot, not a monkey. But they have subtitled as if it were Mono. Ancelotti was told at a press conference, and Ancelotti did not want to see it. Now Vinicius and the whole world are posting a video that isn't real and that, if you don't speak Spanish, can confuse you because they are two words that can sound similar.

 

And then next thing you're blaming Vinicius and Real Madrid, suggesting that they're supporting a false narrative about Vinicius' racial vilification. Yet in your next sentence you're confirming that yes 3-40 (weird numbers) supporters did say racist things to him. Of course it's not the whole stadium of 45,000 people, that's such a pointless thing to say in defence of racist abuse being levelled against a player. What are you suggesting the motive of Vinicius is when you say that he is 'fueling a controversy based on lies' - what is the lie? That 45,000 people and not 40 were racially abusing him?

 

18 hours ago, Diego21 said:

Regarding the Vinicius doll... Well, I hate the act. But (what I am going to say is very serious, because I have no proof) I think it was not the Atlético fans. And when it happened, it made me very angry, because I did believe that it was them, obviously. But a person who is usually involved in the ultra movement told me that they were very calm because they had not been and that we would see how in a while nothing of that would be heard again. And so it has been. The police said, a week after it happened, that they had biological remains of the perpetrators and that they were going to arrest them soon... Many months have passed and we don't know anything. Why?. 

 

You have answered your own question here, because as you saw they have now changed the perpetrators of this hate crime. Is this also a false narrative?

 

19 hours ago, Diego21 said:

And just yesterday, the Spanish League has expelled for life the referee who decided to expel Vinicius for his aggression against the Valencia player.

 

His aggression (an open handed arm hand swipe to the side of the face) was reciprocated against a player who held him in a headlock with his arm against his neck immediately prior. The red card of Vinicius has been overturned. Valencia have confirmed that racist chants were levied against Vinicius. Valencia's sponsors have spoken out against it. I suppose this is just more false narrative? The referee was not expelled for life to my understanding - in fact the referee who decided to expel Vinicius was not punished at all. It was the VAR who has been stood down (likely permanently), as it was the VAR who determined what footage to show the referee. The referee did not see what had happened prior to the swipe from Vinicius, which is why he reached the wrong decision.

 

19 hours ago, Diego21 said:

When the campaign against racism began, in the match against Atleti, it was because they asked Koke if he would see it as okay for Vinicius to dance if he scored a goal. And Koke said: "If he scores a goal and celebrates it by dancing in front of our fans, surely it can get messy because the fans will feel bad about it." This is racism? Because they said yes. They said that Koke was racist and he started it all. Later we learned that what was happening was that Vinicius wanted to patent his dance as a brand and needed to create a ball out of all this.

 

Koke warned that Vini should expect trouble if he celebrated a goal by dancing against Atletico. Sure, there may be nothing racist in what Koke said, but the chants that occurred at the game were racist and won't have been helped by the comments from him. The racist fans would have seen this as the trouble that Koke referred to. So, hang on a moment, the false narrative is all to promote Vinicius' dance (this is the first I have heard of him having a special dance BTW) and now not just Vini and Real Madrid are in on it, but also Valencia, he three fans from Valancia who have been arrested, their sponsors, the Spanish Football Federation and the referees committee? Plus presumably the 4 charged with hanging the Vinicius effigy? How deep does this conspiracy run? It's obviously not just racism because Spain is not a racist country. I'm sure they share that sentiment in Brazil. 

 

Finally, I'm not accusing you of being racist, definitely not, but it seems to me you have lost sight of the forest for all the trees; your hatred for Real Madrid and the sportsmanship of their players is blinding you from a problem that quite clearly exists and needs to be handled in a clear and direct way, not through reducing countless incidents down to the acts of a few. 

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19 hours ago, Diego21 said:

I want to make it clear. I wish the game had really stopped and they would have taken the 2 or 3 that Vini points out, they made monkey gestures at him.

I hate racism in stadiums. But it is not only racism. I hate being insulted, just like that.

I don't think Spain is racist, but I do believe that in all stadiums there are 1% of fans who use football and use racist insults because they don't know how serious a problem racism is. And since I consider it such a serious problem, I don't like to be frivolous about it either.

 

The only way to stop it is to take hard action against it and show that it will not be tolerated. Stopping the game and removing the individuals would have been a clear and visible sign to all that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. As it was they didn't do that and what followed was farcical. An obviously riled up Vinicius gets involved in a verbal altercation, the Valencia GK comes aggressively sprinting over, escalating the situation, then Vinicius has another Valencia player grab him in a headlock from behind and when he eventually breaks free he swipes at that same player (Duro) who had not been on the pitch long. Duro did not even get a yellow for his involvement in the play. The keeper who charged in (Mamardashvili) did get a yellow.

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The first thing I have to say is that I really don't hate Real Madrid.

Maybe when he was little he did, perhaps because he was unconscious, but I don't hate Real Madrid. Hate is a very serious thing. Do I want him to always lose? Yes. But I don't hate it.

 

I can't hate something that surrounds me and is so much in my life. Ever since I was little, I was the only Atleti boy in my school class. The rest, from Real Madrid. I have a group of 24 friends... And except for two, who are from Barcelona and another, who is from Atlético, they are all from Real Madrid. More than half of my family are Real Madrid fans and all my girlfriends have been!

 

I must say that I have worked for 9 months in the 2nd most read sports newspaper in Spain covering Real Madrid. And when my contract ended, my fellow journalists thought, from the way I wrote, that I was a Real Madrid fan. (And that I had to be on a day like the UCL final against Atleti in 2014).

In fact, what I can say is that I care less about Real Madrid every day.

 

I have to admit one thing. I practically don't watch any football in the Spanish League. And I only see Real Madrid, Barcelona or Sevilla when they play European competition.

The other day, against Valencia, I only saw the second part.

 

I have admired many Real Madrid players, without any problem. I loved when they signed Owen because he was my favorite striker in the world then. I loved when they signed Beckham. Marcelo, Bale or Ronaldo have been players that I have always admired. Even one as violent as Casemiro (I always said that he was the determining and differential player of Real Madrid). Or Pepe, who is one of the most aggressive footballers I have ever seen, I will always say that for me he is one of the 3-4 best central defenders I have seen in my life.

In the current squad there are players that I like from Real Madrid. And although I don't completely like Vinicius, I admit that he is very good and above all that he has a personality that makes him win games.

 

And that has nothing to do with me thinking he's a troublemaker.

And if. If a person makes monkey gestures at you (for now, the images have only been able to find one, which is the one he points to with his hand), you have to condemn a person. And you have to say that a person is racist. And it is a problem. But it's not the same problem as if an entire stadium called you a monkey, like they did here 15-20 and 30 years ago.

 

The moment you modify a video and mix an audio where you make believe that 45,000 people are calling you a monkey when it's a lie, you stop having credibility.

The moment you use the racism of an entire country (which you are not suffering) to patent two of your own brands and make money, you stop having credibility.

And I don't think I'm going to comment any more on the subject. I don't care if Vinicius is white, yellow or green. He is an troublemaker player. And it doesn't matter that he's from Real Madrid either, because when I didn't like the attitude of an Atletico Madrid player I've always said so.

Edited by Diego21
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You've missed the point and you're still acting as though the many instances have all been fabrications despite 7 people being charged (4 for the doll and 3 from the Valencia game), various statements from the clubs involved, from the federation and from the referees.

 

You wrote very passionately and at length about how you consider Vinicius to be the most unsportsmanlike player you've ever seen. I really can't see what relationship this has to his race and the confirmed racism that has been directed at him.

 

I was wrong about your hatred for Real Madrid, should I call it dislike or indifference? Whatever it is, and whether or not it contributes to your opinion on the continuing racism in Spanish football doesn't really matter. The racism has been in stadiums from Spanish footballing fans, I just assumed you would have seen it, but now understand that you may have missed parts of it through not watching a lot of la liga.

 

If you wish to know of more unsporting players than Vinicius I can name a few for you; Suarez, Gattuso, Rivaldo, Roy Keane, Pepe (I know you mentioned him, but this for me cannot be disputed), Nigel de Jong and Paul Scholes. You could easily include Joey Barton amongst them, and even though he's not a footballer of note except for his dirty tackles; Kevin Muscat.

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2 hours ago, OTF said:

You've missed the point and you're still acting as though the many instances have all been fabrications despite 7 people being charged (4 for the doll and 3 from the Valencia game), various statements from the clubs involved, from the federation and from the referees.

 

You wrote very passionately and at length about how you consider Vinicius to be the most unsportsmanlike player you've ever seen. I really can't see what relationship this has to his race and the confirmed racism that has been directed at him.

 

I was wrong about your hatred for Real Madrid, should I call it dislike or indifference? Whatever it is, and whether or not it contributes to your opinion on the continuing racism in Spanish football doesn't really matter. The racism has been in stadiums from Spanish footballing fans, I just assumed you would have seen it, but now understand that you may have missed parts of it through not watching a lot of la liga.

 

If you wish to know of more unsporting players than Vinicius I can name a few for you; Suarez, Gattuso, Rivaldo, Roy Keane, Pepe (I know you mentioned him, but this for me cannot be disputed), Nigel de Jong and Paul Scholes. You could easily include Joey Barton amongst them, and even though he's not a footballer of note except for his dirty tackles; Kevin Muscat.

Well. Actually, either we have a problem with the language and I don't know how to express myself or then you don't want to understand me.


I leave the subject here because it is too complicated and important a topic to leave misunderstandings..

Edited by Diego21
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8 minutes ago, Diego21 said:

Well. Actually, either we have a problem with the language and I don't know how to express myself or then you don't want to understand me.


I leave the subject here because it is too complicated and important a topic to leave misunderstandings..

Yeah, the language barrier is a hurdle that is especially difficult to get over without stumbling. For example, you said you like Michael Owen, so I'm convinced something must have been lost in translation. 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Diego21 said:

Well. Actually, either we have a problem with the language and I don't know how to express myself or then you don't want to understand me.


I leave the subject here because it is too complicated and important a topic to leave misunderstandings..

 

Yes, fair call, I applaud you, your english is very very good for someone with a different primary language. I do want to understand you.

 

Despite some Spanish heritage I speak none. I recall being in Madrid in 2010 during the period the World cup was on - actually I flew straight from South Africa to Madrid with a bunch of loud and annoying Brazilian supporters who were having too good a time on an overnight flight. Anyway, I was wearing a Spain jersey and had more than one person approach me and ask me something in Spanish. I had to reply with just about the only thing I could say "no hablo".

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1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

I reckon Potter tbh. And he'd be a decent call for them since they need a full rebuild.

 

Here's hoping. :pray: Because Spurs have such a fabulous record when it comes to appointing ex Chelsea managers - Hoddle, Villas-Boas, Mourinho, Conte ....

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11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I forgot Villa-Boas was even in existence :lol: Apparently took up rally car racing...

 

Well he had some experience of managing car crashes.

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Wigan circling the drain by the sounds of it? Not really kept abreast of that but their fans seem to be getting increasingly frantic. Points deductions for next season now in place, failing to pay player wages and seemingly no willingness by their board to put money in to resolve any of it.

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Just now, Rayvin said:

Wigan circling the drain by the sounds of it? Not really kept abreast of that but their fans seem to be getting increasingly frantic. Points deductions for next season now in place, failing to pay player wages and seemingly no willingness by their board to put money in to resolve any of it.

 

What a difference a decade makes. 10 years ago we were talked about it in a similar vein due to us both being run by sports shop magnates. Fucking hell, Ashley really did reduce the value of our stock on multiple levels.

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7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Wigan circling the drain by the sounds of it? Not really kept abreast of that but their fans seem to be getting increasingly frantic. Points deductions for next season now in place, failing to pay player wages and seemingly no willingness by their board to put money in to resolve any of it.

Hopefully Whelan goes with it the utter parasitic cunt

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